this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2025
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TL;DR: Self-Driving Teslas Rear-End Motorcyclists, Killing at Least 5

Brevity is the spirit of wit, and I am just not that witty. This is a long article, here is the gist of it:

  • The NHTSA’s self-driving crash data reveals that Tesla’s self-driving technology is, by far, the most dangerous for motorcyclists, with five fatal crashes that we know of.
  • This issue is unique to Tesla. Other self-driving manufacturers have logged zero motorcycle fatalities with the NHTSA in the same time frame.
  • The crashes are overwhelmingly Teslas rear-ending motorcyclists.

Read our full analysis as we go case-by-case and connect the heavily redacted government data to news reports and police documents.

Oh, and read our thoughts about what this means for the robotaxi launch that is slated for Austin in less than 60 days.

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[–] captainastronaut@seattlelunarsociety.org 142 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Tesla self driving is never going to work well enough without sensors - cameras are not enough. It’s fundamentally dangerous and should not be driving unsupervised (or maybe at all).

[–] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 86 points 1 day ago (8 children)

Accurate.

Each fatality I found where a Tesla kills a motorcyclist is a cascade of 3 failures.

  1. The car's cameras don't detect the biker, or it just doesn't stop for some reason.
  2. The driver isn't paying attention to detect the system failure.
  3. The Tesla's driver alertness tech fails to detect that the driver isn't paying attention.

Taking out the driver will make this already-unacceptably-lethal system even more lethal.

[–] jonne@infosec.pub 66 points 1 day ago (3 children)
  1. Self-driving turns itself off seconds before a crash, giving the driver an impossibly short timespan to rectify the situation.
[–] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 63 points 1 day ago (1 children)

... Also accurate.

God, it really is a nut punch. The system detects the crash is imminent.

Rather than automatically try to evade... the self-driving tech turns off. I assume it is to reduce liability or make the stats look better. God.

[–] jonne@infosec.pub 37 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Yep, that one was purely about hitting a certain KPI of 'miles driven on autopilot without incident'. If it turns off before the accident, technically the driver was in control and to blame, so it won't show up in the stats and probably also won't be investigated by the NTSB.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 14 points 1 day ago (2 children)

so it won't show up in the stats

Hopefully they wised up by now and record these stats properly....?

[–] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 23 points 1 day ago (3 children)

NHTSA collects data if self-driving tech was active within 30 seconds of the impact.

The companies themselves do all sorts of wildcat shit with their numbers. Tesla's claimed safety factor right now is 8x human. So to drive with FSD is 8x safer than your average human driver, that's what they say on their stock earnings calls. Of course, that's not true, not based on any data I've seen, they haven't published data that makes it externally verifiable (unlike Waymo, who has excellent academic articles and insurance papers written about their 12x safer than human system).

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[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 18 points 1 day ago

Even when it is just milliseconds before the crash, the computer turns itself off.

Later, Tesla brags that the autopilot was not in use during this ( terribly, overwhelmingly) unfortunate accident.

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[–] ascense@lemm.ee 16 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Most frustrating thing is, as far as I can tell, Tesla doesn't even have binocular vision, which makes all the claims about humans being able to drive with vision only even more blatantly stupid. At least humans have depth perception. And supposedly their goal is to outperform humans?

[–] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago (8 children)

Tesla's argument of "well human eyes are like cameras therefore we shouldn't use LiDAR" is so fucking dumb.

Human eyes have good depth perception and absolutely exceptional dynamic range and focusing ability. They also happen to be linked up to a rapid and highly efficient super computer far outclassing anything that humanity has ever devised, certainly more so than any computer added to a car.

And even with all those advantages humans have, we still crash from time to time and make smaller mistakes regularly.

[–] NABDad@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

They also happen to be linked up to a rapid and highly efficient super computer far outclassing anything that humanity has ever devised

A neural network that has been in development for 650 million years.

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[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 83 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Hey guys relax! It's all part of the learning experience of Tesla FSD.
Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

Regards
Elon Musk
CEO of Tesla

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago (4 children)

P.S. Volunteers needed for the Mars mission as well.

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[–] Gork@lemm.ee 68 points 1 day ago (10 children)

Lidar needs to be a mandated requirement for these systems.

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Or at least something other than just cameras. Even just adding ultrasonic senses to the front would be an improvement.

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[–] HK65@sopuli.xyz 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Honestly, emergency braking with LIDAR is mature and cheap enough at this point that is should be mandated for all new cars.

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[–] 0x0@programming.dev 52 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (6 children)

This is news? Fortnine talked about it two years ago.
TL;DR Tesla removed LIDAR to save a buck and the cameras see two red dots that the 'puter thinks it's a far away car at night when indeed it's a close motorcycle.

[–] LesserAbe@lemmy.world 18 points 1 day ago (3 children)

It's helpful to remember that not everyone has seen the same stories you have. If we want something to change, like regulators not allowing dangerous products, then raising public awareness is important. Expressing surprise that not everyone knows about something can be counterproductive.

Going beyond that, wouldn't the new information here be the statistics?

[–] JordanZ@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago

My state allowed motorcycle filtering in 2019 (not the same as California’s lane splitting). They ran a study and found a ton of motorcyclists were being severely injured or killed while getting rear ended sitting at stop lights. Filtering allows them to move to the front of the traffic light while the light is red and traffic is stationary. Many people are super aggravated about it even though most of the world has been doing it basically forever.

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[–] lnxtx@feddit.nl 36 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Stop dehumanizing drivers who killed people.
Feature, wrongly called, Full Self-Driving, shall be supervised at any time.

[–] SouthEndSunset@lemm.ee 28 points 1 day ago

If you’re going to say your car has “full self driving”, it should have that, not “full self driving (but needs monitoring.)” or “full self driving (but it disconnects 2 seconds before impact.)”.

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 10 points 1 day ago

I think it's important to call out inattentive drivers while also calling out the systems and false advertising that may lead them to become less attentive.

If these systems were marketed as "driver assistance systems" instead of "full self driving", certainly more people would pay attention. The fact that they've been allowed to get away with this blatant false advertising is astonishing.

They're also obviously not adequately monitoring for driver attentiveness.

[–] 9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works 35 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sounds like NHTSA needs a visit from DOGE!

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[–] Visstix@lemmy.world 30 points 1 day ago (21 children)

Why is self-driving even allowed?

[–] kameecoding@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Because muh freedum, EU are a bunch of commies for not allowing this awesome innovation on their roads

(I fucking love living in the EU)

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[–] AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net 30 points 1 day ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (4 children)

I imagine bicyclists must be æffected as well if they're on the road (as we should be, technically). As somebody who has already been literally inches away from being rear-ended, this makes me never want to bike in the US again.

Time to go to Netherlands.

[–] poopkins@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago (7 children)
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[–] Substance_P@lemmy.world 30 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)
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[–] DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world 28 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Five years ago, you could not have brought this up without Musk simps defending it.

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[–] keesrif@lemmy.world 25 points 1 day ago (7 children)

On a quick read, I didn't see the struck motorcycles listed. Last I heard, a few years ago, was that this mainly affected motorcycles with two rear lights that are spaced apart and fairly low to the ground. I believe this is mostly true for Harleys.

The theory I recall was that this rear light configuration made the Tesla assume it was looking (remember, only cameras without depth data) at a car that was further down the road - and acceleration was safe as a result. It miscategorised the motorcycle so badly that it misjudged it's position entirely.

[–] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 29 points 1 day ago (5 children)

I also saw that theory! That's in the first link in the article.

The only problem with the theory: Many of the crashes are in broad daylight. No lights on at all.

I didn't include the motorcycle make and model, but I did find it. Because I do journalism, and sometimes I even do good journalism!

The models I found are: Kawasaki Vulcan (a cruiser bike, just like the Harleys you describe), Yamaha YZF-R6 (a racing-style sport bike with high-mount lights), and a Yamaha V-Star (a "standard" bike, fairly low lights, and generally a low-slung bike). Weirdly, the bike models run the full gamut of the different motorcycles people ride on highways, every type is represented (sadly) in the fatalities.

I think you're onto something with the faulty depth sensors. Sensing distance is difficult with optical sensors. That's why Tesla would be alone in the motorcycle fatality bracket, and that's why it would always be rear-end crashes by the Tesla.

[–] littleomid@feddit.org 11 points 1 day ago (2 children)

At least in EU, you can’t turn off motorcycle lights. They’re always on. In eu since 2003, and in US, according to the internet, since the 70s.

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[–] jonne@infosec.pub 28 points 1 day ago

Whatever it is, it's unacceptable and they should really ban Tesla's implementation until they fix some fundamental issues.

[–] ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

The ridiculous thing is, it has 3 cameras pointing forward, you only need 2 to get stereoscopic depth perception with cameras...why the fuck are they not using that!?

Edit: I mean, I know why, it's because it's cameras with three different lenses used for different things (normal, wide angle, and telescopic) so they're not suitable for it, but it just seems stupid to not utilise that concept when you insist on a camera only solution.

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[–] Ledericas@lemm.ee 24 points 1 day ago (2 children)

the cybertruck is sharp enough to cut a deer in half, surely a biker is just as vulnerable.

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Trucks in general have gotten so big they are pedestrian deathtraps

[–] expatriado@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago (3 children)

as daily rider, i must add having a tesla behind to the list of road hazards to look out

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[–] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 19 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Every captcha.....can you see the motorcycle? I would be afraid if they wanted all the squares with small babies or maybe just regular folk...can you pick all the hottie's? Which of these are body parts?

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 1 day ago (10 children)

Remember, you have the right to self-defence, against both rogue robots and rogue humans.

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[–] Litebit@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Elon needs to take responsibility for their death.

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[–] misteloct@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm wondering how that stacks up to human drivers. Since the data is redacted I'm guessing not well at all.

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[–] PalmTreeIsBestTree@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago (2 children)

This is another reason I’ll never drive a motorcycle. Fuck that shit.

[–] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 12 points 1 day ago (9 children)

It's like smoking: if you haven't started, don't XD

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