Ask Lemmy

Somebody else pointed out that there is probably nothing you could say or do to change her mind, and I'm sorry to say that's probably correct. She may or may not recognizes she's being emotionally abusive, but the authority she has over you likely gives her a sense of power. Trying to control your emotions by getting a reaction out of you, or making you upset, or making you mask your own emotions to please her (ex:telling you that you're not really feeling how you tell her you feel) gives her a sense of control.

You should know it's very pathetic behavior on her part, but you shouldn't waste your own time and energy trying to change her, or trying to get back at her by saying something mean to hurt her (even though that's exactly what she's priming you to do, and probably what her own parents did to her).

There is a good chance that one day you're going to realize it's just not worth the hassle and stress to have somebody so negative and toxic in your life. You're stuck with her now because she brought you into this world. You had no say in the matter.

That's what makes her obligated to you, (legally at least until you're able to take care of yourself, morally forever because you're always going to be her child that she brought into this world). Her job is to be your mother and accept you as her child.

Your job is to learn who you are and grow into yourself. That's it. You have no other obligation. She might have put a roof over your head and kept you alive, but that's literally bare minimum for every parent. It sounds like her idea of "value" is just doing her bare minimum obligation.

She might not realize it until the day she finds herself alone and longing to have you in her life, but one day it will be your choice, (not your obligation), to decide if you want any relationship or contact with her. She may currently have power and control over you, but she doesn't seem to have much value.

You might want to consider just not bothering to share your feelings and emotions with her anymore. Just talk to her like you would an acquaintance or a customer at work. No need for hostility or being rude, but also no need to make yourself vulnerable to somebody who refuses to respect you.

You can't control her being abusive and crazy. All you can control is your own reaction (and doing so will probably piss her off more than any hurtful thing you could ever say to her). She can be as mean and crazy as she wants, but just try to let it roll of your back and keep yourself neutral in whatever interactions you have. Minimize your time with her until you're able to move out.

I'm sorry she sucks and you deserve better. Maybe someday she can work on herself, and learn to be the kind of mother you deserve. Maybe she can apologize to you and you can forgive her and start a new chapter. If not it's her loss and you shouldn't let the opinion of a vindictive crazy woman make you question your own value.

Learn from her mistakes, and make it your goal to try and be the kind of person you needed around when you were growing up.

You can tell her she's a negative person who devalues other humans to make herself feel important.

You can simply tell her that when she speaks like that you personally think less of her.

No rebuttal necessary. Anyone that shitty isn’t worth having a conversation with at all.

tell her that at one time women who could no longer give birth or provide for the family were considered worthless. at this point in time what does she think her value would be in a society that believes women are to be used as breeding stock and slave labor?

regardless of what she says follow up with, why does she believe she has value when clearly she's past her prime and can no longer provide children or support the family?

fight fire with fire. if she wants to follow archaic social behaviors throw them back in her face.

Do you think she is able to change her mind? If not, maybe it's not worth trying to refute whatever she can say or think.

I was still a child when I realized my mom and I would never agree on much. At first, I tried hard to force her to understand my point of view on whatever was at stake, not realizing the contradiction between 'understanding' and 'forcing'. I was barely a teen when I realized that contradiction and that it was useless to insist. It mattered even less that back then I knew for a fact I would not be spending my life with her, also I know I could spend time people with whom I felt... more welcomed/understood. Back in the 70s and early 80s, it was simpler for young kid to spend time outside of the house, even with perfect strangers... No idea how hard it has become for kids nowadays but I'm afraid this won't help them find some peace and hope (as a child, my life was more painful within my family than with any of those strangers I met outside and spent as much time as I could with).

I don‘t believe in laziness. There is no scientific proof for laziness but plenty evidence that points in the opposite direction. It‘s as ridiculous of a concept as an almighty god. Possibly even more outlandish.

Boredom is torture. Nobody is acting lazy out of choice. We simply spend our energy at unproductive things sometimes. But honestly? Isn’t that what all this circus is about in the end? That we do what we love or that we do things for others because we love them?

Show me one „lazy“ person and I‘ll tell you why they‘re not actually lazy but occupy themselves with things you or I don‘t deem important. It‘s not laziness. It never is.

Don’t feed the trolls. I know she’s your mom, but not everyone deserves a response. If she keeps on you, just wave her away with “I heard you”.

It's projection. She knows that in her retirement she has stopped "providing value". I doubt she paid you for the ad-hoc legal and accounting work you did for her, so she is happy for you to provide value without compensation. I would simply tell her that if she doesn't want to have to find her own retirement home she needs to start paying for your services. This is the kind of person who thinks value is what you pay for, so long as she isn't paying you she isn't valuing what you do for her. The whole "you are a negative value" is exactly what she is to you, she is taxing your time, energy and emotions to make up for some perceived economic loss for raising a child she chose to have.

Who decides what's valuable? She probably isn't valuable under certain metrics. She thinks broken legs are being lazy?

No rebuttal. Not worth fighting over. Probably can't change her, and who would it really help if you did? If the horrible things people believe are of no consequence to anyone else, just let them believe it. You can't save people from themselves.

The people who are actually valuable would not say such a thing.

Ask what "people that don't have value" are, definition likely includes her or people close to her at certain situations.

Wow, your mom sucks. Get her out of your life.

Same thing i told my mother when she told me that same view... "Fuck you, kill yourself"

I think "nuh uh" is a fair rebuttal, to be honest

My rebuttal: eat shit you fucking bigot

You cannot teach adults why they should care.

I think I've said this before to you a few weeks ago, and I totally understand that it's easier said than done to cut family off, but your family are negative influences in your life and on your psyche, and you should be ignoring their bullshit and get away from them.

Sorry your family still sucks, all I can offer are platitudes I'm afraid.

To answer your question though, I think a good, solid "Shit up, shit-bagel, you wouldn't have shit if it weren't for me and no amount of denial on your part can change facts." and walk away/block/slam the door.

Pinpoint her ideology or religion and you will find venerated figures that didn't "provide value." For instance if we're talking about productive labour in the capitalist sense, Jesus didn't have a job (for most of the bible's narrative). Confucius? Similar story, I think. Any philosopher or religious figure...

Value really becomes subjective. If you're a writer like Ayn Rand or George Orwell, of course you have been very successful, but many people don't find value in your work, because they disagree with you.

Our ability to provide value is also fairly contingent on those around us, the head-start they've given to us, and the problems or trauma we have to overcome.

Your mom’s view toward mental health is backwards and unhelpful. Her way of thinking prevents people from getting the counseling, medicine, and / or guidance they need for their mind. Next time she has a physical injury, she should just suck it up and stop being lazy.

This won’t help your mom, she won’t change her mind and will try to drag the argument or will just attack until everything is destroyed. But here’s a clear rebuttal of the idea.

The failure of demanding everyone showing worth is determining what is worth and who gets to define and assign it. Every petty warlord believes they are the one to decide… and oh gee, amazing how they have the most worth.

If you tell your mom you will only accept her argument if she accepts you have more worth than her - and demonstrates it to you every day - it will probably make her go no contact until she needs you again for emotional affirmation.

Depression is real, I don’t have it but it’s real and I have friends that deal with it as part of their lives. It sounds like getting out of your mom’s sewer might help, but you might need medication as well.

Nothing you say will influence that level of callous, cruel, self-centered, unempathetic evil. I would say nothing and never talk to her again. Ultimately, a person can only change themselves, and she has chosen to be monstrous. She is more likely to influence you than you are to influence her, because you can see beyond yourself and she does not.

Give her a tour of the most godawful nursing home to show her future when she no longer has "value."

Seriously, I feel like the owners of those places would feed their clients to the woodchippers if they could get away with it.

Sounds like your mom wanted a little slave to obey her and instead got a human child with an individual character that wants to be loved and live free. Well, people do that a lot. Try to get away from there. Focus on what you're good at, train your skills try to stand on your own feet and make a life and a living of your own. Then you can start living independently and get away from people with such cold hearted inhumane points of view.

(Only productive people's live are valuable, seriously? That is just social-darwinist garbage... In my country there used to be a asshole with a funny beard who propagated this point of view a lot and he ended up shooting himself in a berlin bunker in '45)

Every child deserves unconditional love from their parents. It is their decision to set a child in this world not the child's. The child owes nothing to their parents. They're human beings not little slave servant puppets. Be aware that you're no longer the helpless child. You're an adult now. Help yourself and be the kind of parent to yourself your mother never was able to be. And you'll find people who care and love you for who you are and not only for your productivity.

If she thinks that depression is just an excuse for laziness, then what's her excuse for her laziness?

It is simple, if not trivial, to go look up what depression means, for example, on Wikipedia. She hasn't done this, and we know that because her understanding of depression doesn't match the actual definition, so her opinion on depression stems from her laziness.

She implies that other people's laziness is a bad thing, so why does she think it's okay for her to express such laziness and lazy opinions?

Do you mean deserve instead of serve?

I believe everyone has value. You might have born in the wrong time period to FULLY utilize that value, but that doesn’t mean you have NO value.

With that said. Don’t mind the voices that tear you down. Surround yourself with people that CARE.

What's is your rebuttal for it?

Don't waste your time and energy on arguments with people who don't want to listen.

It sounds like she doesn’t understand how the brain works differently and in a person with depression.

Unfortunately, she probably isn’t willing to learn. I know a lot of people with similar opinions feel like they know everything.

I’m sorry you have to go through that.

From your posts it sounds like you really just need to get away from your family, sorry.

I'll speak to the humans have value part, but just briefly saying someone diagnosed with depression is just being lazy is bigoted against people with serious mental health diagnosis and is the same & just as gross as saying someone diagnosed with a physical condition like cancer is lazy.

You may be interested in learning about Alan Gewirth if you haven't had the chance yet.

https://iep.utm.edu/gewirth/

He argued for universal human rights based on our inherent agency. The argument is laid out better elsewhere, but a short version is something like this:

1. We humans have agency, that is desires & goals to accomplish. For a child it can be as basic as I'm hungry -> eat food, but this is something that gives us normative structure (you should do a thing). For example if I have the goal of graduating from school I should attend classes, I should do homework, etc.

2. Every goal you wish to accomplish can have different requirements, but two that are always present are the freedom to pursue your goals and the wellbeing to accomplish tasks necessary to achieve your goals. So you would need the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and achieve your goals.

3. Because your agency gives you the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and accomplish your goals, then everyone's agency grants them the same rights.

If you accept the 3 items above then violate other people's freedom and wellbeing then you would be objectively wrong and inconsistent in your beliefs, because you believe you have rights by agency but deny those same rights to others by the same reason (agency) they hold.

She's using a logical fallacy, in this case, vested interest.

Here's how it works, logically speaking, from Dr. Bo Bennet: Person 1 is claiming Y.

Person 1 has a vested interest in Y being true.

Therefore, Y is false.

Plenty of people have told you already that she sounds toxic, that you should cut ties, etc. I don't disagree, but if you do want a rebuttal:

What value does she provide to society now? And what value would she provide if, say, she was injured in such a way that she couldn't work anymore? What about when she retires? Does she think she should be culled in either of those cases?

Society works better when people know their loved ones are safe, regardless of their ability to contribute. Because when society doesn't take care of the less able, their loved ones have to; often at the expense of society.

Narcissists and people who struggle with empathy often miss that this is in their own self interest, because they often have trouble seeing that most people won't participate much in a society that doesn't help their loved ones.

I'd say your mom has zero value offered to my life; therefore, while my value to her is zero, the reverse is also true so I don't have to care what she thinks.

Obviously, it's different for you.

I would share a story I often share with people who have to deal with difficult people. It's a parable, so it doesn't have to be true to make its point. You can dress up the story however much you want, but the essence of it is "I was walking with my father out of the grocery store when a homeless man asked him for money. My father gave him $20 (or whatever local currency is a couple hours' wage, buys a couple meals, or a big bottle of cheap booze) and I said, 'Dad, you know he's just going to use that to buy drugs or alcohol, right?' and he said to me, 'Well son, that says more about him than it does about me.'" We do what we do because of who we are, not because of who someone else is (to say that $20 would have gone better to a battered women's shelter or something like that). In this case the father just wanted to help somebody. So to apply that to your mom, I would say those people who don't have value to her don't need her approval to go on living. They're going to do what they do because of who they are, and who she is determines what she will do. If that makes any sense.

As for the depression thing, well, that's just incorrect. It's like saying any disease or illness is an excuse for something or representative of a certain group of people. It's as unreasonable and lazy-minded as calling AIDS "the gay cancer." Because yes, there is some correlation there (that is to say, AIDS can be transmitted through unsafe sex, and in the 1980s, when that slogan was popular, the gay culture was very promiscuous; likewise, depression does seem to present as laziness, to the untrained observer), but it's not a very educated thing to say and only makes the person look mean, and/or uneducated.

So for a "quick & dirty" answer, I would tell her that expressing those opinions in public could make her look bad. If you come from a conservative Asian background (assuming from the username — apologies if I'm wrong) you could also add that it brings shame to you and others, and in either case remind her that sometimes it is better to be assumed a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. Despite this long message, which I tried to make well-thought out and cover all bases, IRL I don't speak much. We open ourselves to criticism and doubt when we speak, so I listen, and observe, choose my words carefully. ;)

Fuck off mum

The rebuttal is:

Go no contact, if she ever asks why you don't talk to her anymore, tell her she's a complete monster.

My rebuttal is "your mom is a b***h". Cut contact as soon as you can; you don't need someone like that in your life. She doesn't value other human beings, and she doesn't have empathy for the suffering of others. She sounds like a nasty person to be around and all she will do is bring you down - either through her constant negativity or though her hatred of others.

You don't need to rebut her words - she is an adult and has made her choices - you just need to accept she is not a good person and move on as soon as you can.