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US citizen wrongfully arrested by border patrol in Arizona held for nearly 10 days
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 21 Apr 2025
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I’m not American so it’s kinda legitimate question.
Are there any good people working for ICE? Or is being an abusive racist cunt part of the requirement?
(I guess there are probably nice normal peoples working there but they are probably too afraid to stand up)
Edit: Wow, I didn’t meant to start such a heated debate. It’s just that from an EU perspective, you have tons of law enforcement from county to federal level, plus the military. But it’s always ICE that you can see doing the awful shit to other human beings. You don’t hear about ATF detaining a kid while showing him rape video of his mother (it did not happen, yet), it has to be ICE, it’s always ICE. Hence the question, what’s the difference between ICE employees and ATF/FBI/local PD/whatever employees?
There are no good people in ICE. It doesn't matter how they present themselves outside of work, they're all Fascist class traitors willingly upholding and legitimizing a Fascist regime, detaining and deporting citizens and immigrants alike ILLEGALLY, and filling the role of the Gestapo from Fascist Germany. Being abusive, racist, and a bastard probably isn't mandatory for the role, but it's the overwhelming majority of people who work there.
Do not pity or feel sorry for them, they'd kill you if they could get away with it.
Boy, I sure do hate ICE right now so this is hard to do but you’re saying if someone works for ICE they are, by that fact alone, a bad person?
That’s an awful lot like forgoing due process and determining someone’s “guilt” because you said so.
I’m pretty disgusted at those who don’t have the integrity to do what’s right, to take a stand to the unlawful and immoral orders they’re being given. I wouldn’t blame anyone who used any amount of force e to defend themselves from ICE at this point since they have no reason to believe that their rights or due process will be respected and it may be their life on the line.
Respectfully, though, I think you’re wrong to paint with such a broad brush. Life can be easier to deal with in such stark black and white terms but it’s never that simple.
If you currently work for ICE and you haven't quit, you've demonstrated you're okay with going along with illegal and immoral actions. That makes you a bad person.
There might be an argument to say that not everyone who has ever worked for ICE is a bad person, but that argument holds little water in 2025.
Due process is required for legal judgements, not moral ones, FYI.
Single mother, works in a minor administrative clerical capacity for an Immigration and Customs Enforcement office, has two school age children and without this job she's on the street and can't take care of these kids. She desperately needs this job but is really upset about the news lately, contacting her representatives, protesting when she can and stands ready to offer shelter in her home to anyone in need of a safe space. Yet in this hypothetical, under your rules, not only do you claim that this person has demonstrated they're okay with going along with illegal and immoral actions but that they're also a bad person. No allowance for circumstance or the fact that this is an unprecedented situation.
I am aware. I used the example to draw a parallel. I would have thought engaging in the same behavior that your upset about might make you stop and think; guess not.
It’s a hypothetical so I’m not sure how you’d measure it but you’re certainly creating a division and fostering an us/them mentality. What purpose does it serve to make a broad statement that’s backed only by emotion and supposition that anybody associated with ICE is a bad person? Other than to make you feel better and more righteous?
It sure does! And we should all of us be against a government that does that. I think I could get on board with a statement like “Any person that knowingly and willingly helps the US government deprive any person of their rights in violation the US Constitution or the law is a bad person”.
A fascist is a fascist, doesn't fuckin matter if they are "only doing their job"
A fascist is an advocate or follower of the political philosophy or system of fascism.
A janitor is a person whose job is to clean and maintain a building or property.
A janitor can be a fascist but they can also just be a janitor.
If you want to claim that any level of culpability makes a person a fascist then I’d say if you’re American and of voting age you’re a fascist because you have culpability in what’s happening right now. If you’re a user of any American corporate product where that corporation contributed to the current administration then you’re a fascist because you have culpability.
and I like how you're trying to steer the conversation in exactly the same way but in a different direction.
I mean seriously, you call the hypothetical person in some low level clerical/administrative role a fascist because they won't quit because it's simply not that easy to do so, yet in the same breath you say "I totally have so much power as an individual to drive the piss ass politics in a country of 330 million" -- hypocrite much?
Would you say you're taking issue with someone making a broad, generalized statement about a group of people based on one commonality?
I don’t disagree with anything you wrote until your edit.
I find your edit offensive and I am reporting your comment as I don’t really appreciate the implication that I am a Nazi or would give a zieg heil salute.
I won’t be dragged into a straw man argument by someone trying to get me to justify Nazis. I also won’t be baited with a false equivalence question like what is the difference between Nazis and ICE. That’s why I gave the definition answers.
I guess I don’t have the purity of all the other Lemmings here to be such an absolutist.
You could say there's "some very fine people" that work there and it'd be accurate.
I haven't defended them. I disagreed with OPs broad generalization and offered an explanation and an example as to why. You may not like or understand why, but there is a distinct difference between defending a person or people who knowingly and willfully violate someones rights under the US Constitution and the law and recognizing that a person is not inherently bad simply because they have a job at an organization.
Let me be absolutely clear: calling me a Nazi is not only wildly inaccurate, it is deeply offensive and unacceptable. That term carries the weight of real historical atrocities — genocide, totalitarianism, and hatred — and to throw it around so carelessly shows a staggering lack of respect for history and the people who suffered under that regime.
Disagreement or difference of opinion is not justification for slander. If you have a criticism, make it with integrity and truth — not with baseless, inflammatory accusations. This kind of rhetoric doesn’t win arguments; it poisons them. So unless you have something factual and meaningful to say, I suggest you stop cheapening serious words and start behaving like an adult.
Are all Nazis bad people, or are there reasonable Nazis we should give the benefit of the doubt to?
That's a lot of words for not a lot of results. Yes, I am in fact saying that by simple fact of working for ICE, you are a bad person, and I hate you.
One of the defining major differences between ICE goons and the MD guy they snatched off the street, as well as everyone else they've deported without due process, is that ICE is currently an arm of the government. They are inherently an extension of the current power structure, and by following these orders to randomly and wantonly deport people without notice or process, they are enabling it. Trying to come at this with the stance of "it's not that simple, guys! Believe me!" is disingenuous at best, and sympathetic at worst.
Moreover, I have seen zero news about ICE officials stepping down or getting fired in disgrace for all this bullshit. Considering that, they are either wholly and happily complicit, or completely apathetic to the whole thing. Neither is good.
Ok. I prefer to approach a situation with reason and logic. It seems like you'd rather respond to anger and ignorance with anger and ignorance of your own. I hope that works out the way you expect.
Look, everyone, this guy labelled himself as logical and reasonable, and his opponent as ignorant!
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No, I didn’t call them ignorant, I said they’re responding to anger and ignorance with anger and ignorance. So are you.
Look at your replies. They’re combative and angry. I disagreed with OPs sweeping generalization and offered a different perspective. I offered examples to explain that perspective. You might not like how I view things but rather than reply with civility you lash out with anger.
I’m angry too but I learned a long time ago that acting in anger is rarely a good idea. Now I take a more even and measured approach and I prefer to view things from a more individualistic level.
Being calm doesn't make you correct any more than being angry makes someone else wrong.
I never said it did. Lemmy is (or was) supposed to be a place for civil discussion. It’s not really about right or wrong, especially on topics like this because so much of it is opinion based. That’s why I stated my disagreement with the broad statement that was made and elucidated about why.
I don’t know that there’s an argument to be made either way which one is “right”. I however reserve my anger for those that have earned it. As far as I can tell we are all largely on the same side of the core issue, I have no desire to lash out and target my anger at you or the OP. If I could have some time with members of this administration it would be a different situation.
Do you even hear yourself? Do you actually think these Fascist Goons are gonna patiently listen to your logical arguments and rhetoric, and just let you go? No, they won't. They're gonna swoop in, grab you off the street, and throw you into the back of a van before you can open your mouth. Trying to out-argue a fascist takeover is a fool's errand; the only thing they respect is power for power's sake. But hey, if you wanna try talking your way out of being illegally deported by Goons with subaverage IQs, be my guest.
I do hear myself and I’m not engaging with them currently. I’m engaging with people on Lemmy at the moment.
The truth is you don’t know what would happen if they came after me, neither do I. I suspect I’m very unlikely to be a target but I think there’s a pretty good chance I’d maybe end up in a position where I’d have to decide whether to intervene on someone else’s behalf, if this continues long enough.
Buddy, I don't know how much clearer they need to be before you understand that they WILL start coming after American Citizens, of ALL types, so long as they don't fall in line with the Fascist Regime. Hell, they've already started, just look at all the recent stories of people being detained at the borders over nonsense, like that couple in Vermont, or that guy in the southwest. Whether you like it or not, you and I are both targets, simply because we are willing to say 'No' to their demands. Even if it's not you or I, this shit WILL get violent before we're through, and no amount of logical argument or rhetoric will change that.
I've seen a lot of this type of rhetoric lately. It might be true but it seems a lot like wish fulfillment to me. I'm not convinced of the doomsday path that you seem to be and I truly hope it doesn't;t devolve into violence because that will be a losing proposition for all. I'm optimistic that there's a path forward without violence but I actually think the hardest part is yet to come. It's going to be the long term reform once the immediate rot is removed.
Man I'm not happy about it either, but there's no reality where we can talk our way out of this as a society. There will unfortunately be blood, whether it's protests against the system getting rowdy with rage, or Fascist crackdowns as the Criminals in Chief seek power consolidation. We're in for a rough ride no matter what.
I truly hope you’re wrong and am optimistic about what I’m seeing but I think we’re still at a tipping point. The next few months will truly be critical for the country.
On this I think we agree 100%. I don’t expect this to ever be the America it was before ain’t my lifetime, maybe ever.
I'm sure when you get picked up and detained without due process all you'll need to do is use reason and logic with them and everything will be fine. /s
I'm also sure that your first reaction to that was to snort in disbelief that such a thing ever would or could happen to you, even though it's already happening to other US citizens. But sure, if you can fit in as a favored type of citizen, maybe it won't happen to you (that's the important thing, right?).
It's time to stop clinging to the belief that things are normal in the United States. Logic, reason, and rule of law no longer apply. Eventually we'll all have to choose a side: the easy one going along with the fascists, or the hard and probably dangerous one against them--yes, even your strawman single mother who is "very concerned" but needs that ICE job, has to choose.
You're making a lot of assumptions. I've thought about what I would do if I got a visit from ICE. I actually pulled my gun out of the safe and cleaned and oiled it just to make sure it was in good working order. I think if they came to my house I would refuse to let them in and if they tried to force entry I'd use any force necessary to defend myself. That said, if there was a list of citizens to be rounded up I suspect I'd be pretty far down on it.
I don't think things are normal in the United States however I don't believe logic, reason, and rule of law no longer apply. Courts are still in session where I live, cases are still being tried, police are still on the streets and enforcing the laws.
My example that you incorrectly called a "straw man" was to demonstrate that making such a broad statement catches people tangentially related who might be stuck by circumstance. I realize a fictitious example isn't the best but hoped it might help illustrate the point. If it's easier to consider what's happening with Tesla and Tesla vehicle owners that's kind of a parallel. There are people who have had a Tesla vehicle long before the current craziness with Musk that may now find themselves caught in the middle simply because some years ago they bought a car that is now being associated with Nazis.
The Tesla brand is associated with fascists for a reason--Elon Musk is one, and perhaps even the most powerful one. The Tesla brand should become anathema for that reason. It should be a mark of shame to drive one now, no matter what it was a sign of before. Don't tell me to feel as sorry for Tesla owners as for the people whose lives are being ruined by Musk and the trump regime as a whole. If they could afford to buy one then, they can afford to get rid of it and get something else. Yes, it's too bad it turned out that way for them, but the blame for that belongs to Musk, not us.
What's really too bad people being abducted and sent to prison camps. People who have served in the government being fired for no valid reason and the detrimental effects that will have on the rest of us and our society. The destruction of government functionality so it can be taken over and its resources divvied up between fascist oligarchs.
Yes, I'm more worried about the people who will lose their medical care as Medicaid is defunded by Congress, those who may miss payments or even completely lose their main source of income after thousands of Social Security workers were fired and the agency becomes more dysfunctional, those who are suffering or have already died because USAID was suddenly shut down, etc etc etc than I am about someone's Tesla resale value or those who work for ICE in any capacity.
Who told you to feel sorry for them?
Who told you to worry about someone’s Tesla resale value or to worry about people who work for ICE?
My whole, and only, comment was that I disagree with the broad general statement that any person employed by ICE is a bad person. I don’t think it’s that simple and convenient.
I’m not a huge fan of how much use Nazi is getting lately either. I was implied as being a Nazi in another comment by a user and that is extremely offensive. Nazis called Jews vermin among other names, 47 uses terms like gang member, illegal, and rapist to talk about immigrants. These terms are just ways to buffer and dehumanize the subject you’re talking about.
You're the one who said Nazi (in your previous post). I use the term fascist which is more accurate for this regime/movement and its supporters, though I don't doubt that many in its ranks would also fall under and identify with the specific term Nazi.
I’m aware I used the term. It was just an additional thought I had that kind evolved and dovetailed in throughout the number of responses I got that occurred while I was replying to you.
I suppose historians will settle on a specific term, probably 'maga' (though I'd prefer 'magat'), to apply to the members of this instance of fascism.
I thought people were bitching about federal workers resigning in protest instead of staying and trying to slow the damage.
There's without a doubt good people working for ICE, because the whole department isn't just enforcers.
No. There are no good people working for ICE. They are hand picked to be racist and cruel.
Hand picked from a self-selected pool of the racist and cruel.
So the mailroom clerk was handpicked to be racist and cruel? I'm sure the custodial staff and maintenance crew were handpicked to be racist and cruel too, right?
ICE has "direct hire authority". This means they can fill positions without any justification of their hiring process or that the competitive hiring process was used. This is NOT how the government is supposed to operate. The mail room clerks are all going to be family and friends of existing ICE employees. The cleaning staff will be from a 3rd party.
ICE is all hand picked and hand groomed evil, a new Nazi SS in its infancy.
Lol, the mods buy into your bullshit, I guess.
This is the thread for Facebook pitchforks, the thread for reason is that way --->
A bad apple spoils the bunch.
We tend to leave the spoiling part out of the metaphor for some reason...