Ask Lemmy

I got a few things that have helped me figure things out.

1. Nobody has this shit figured out. We're all just kids with jobs and responsibilities now.

2. The only people that care about how manly another man is are other men that wanna feel superior to you. It's okay to want to feel manly if that's what you want, but don't do it for someone that probably didn't like you to begin with. Why work so hard to earn the approval of someone you don't like?

3. Men are just as emotional as women and the sooner you realize that the sooner you can start dealing with your emotions in a healthy way.

4. Don't try and find people that fit the very specific definition of "friend" that you have in your head. Every friendship and relationship is unique and should be appreciated for what it is instead of what it isn't.

5. Failure doesn't mean that you are a failure. Try and figure out why you failed instead of focusing on the fact that you did fail. You learn a lot more about yourself from your failures than your success.

The "Fully Functional" is something that the most level headed adults that I know, men or otherwise, would refute on the spot. I don't think I know anyone who feels like a fully functional person. Or an adult for that matter. As that is an elusive concept to begin with. Although, that doesn't mean one can't find ways to mature.

I'm 40. And the thing that I'll say is that kids and younger people have it harder these days. The world is in a state of unprecedented cacophony, in which the previous existential threats that loomed over the previous generations are all stacking up to form a massive sense of unease.

Whichever adult, men, woman or other, that claims they have it all figured in the face of increasing calamity is lying. Possibly to themselves first.

The men who feel the way(s) that you mentioned, are not wrong in feeling the way they do. They can only be wrong in how they act in response to it. Because from time to time, we're all bound to feel like that at one point or another. And unfortunately in some circumstances and contexts that might be more persistent than others.

The great failure of our time is not that men, young or not, are failing more, but that we are all failing more. Because we are all failing each other. Some more than others, obviously. But even so, we're failing to reach one another at some point in a growing secluded world.

You can eat your greens. Go to the gym. Earn income that allows you comfort. Find a partner. And even have a child...

And still feel all the things that these "men" do.

The point of maturity is to not make others pay for what burdens you.

And the only escape out of that isolated space is not the "self-improvement" route that the fraudulent will try to coach others. As that is just maintenance.

The way out of loneliness is in service of others. Which has always been the the case and will always be.

Trying to find a way out of loneliness by trying to find a romantic partner to "fix that" is just offloading the burdening responsibility to another person. And regardless of sex or sexual orientation that will always lead to a toxic dependency and a relationship that never ends well.

I'm a 40 year old dude. I have a home. I get to do what I'm passionate about. I have a partner that I live with and I love her. But if anyone comes knocking for advice, I tell them that if they're looking for easy answers, they're looking for lies to comfort them out of what they already know to be true... That life is complicated and none of us really know what we're doing while we're roaming this earth.

But it sure is a whole lot easier when we're kind to one another. And that is about the only certainty we're gonna get before we die.

Everything else is noise.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

• C.S. Lewis

1. I was priveledged enough to have positive role models and grow up in an environment where I could form platonic friendships with girls.

2. I started training martial arts at 14.

3. I made a fuck tonne of mistakes, took responsibility, and learned from them.

4. I kept coming back to my foundational beliefs and continually adjusting my behaviour to reflect them.

I don't know about fully functional, but I think there's 3 things I would say are key to not being miserable all the time:

• Be kind. It's not in everyone's nature, but the results are so rewarding. Just stop to think, is what I'm doing right now causing someone else pain or discomfort? How could I reverse that? Don't let your bad day ruin someone else's.

• Be purposeful. Find things to strive for. Small goals are fine, and sometimes things take a long time, but don't lose sight of where you want to be. Dont be manipulative or treat it like a zero sum game either, your success doesn't need to come at the cost of someone else's. Winning with your friends is even better than winning alone.

• Be forgiving. Most importantly to yourself. Failure is not the enemy of success. Self hatred will destroy any chance you have at happiness, many of us are taught at a young age to treat our own failings as horrendous sins that we must mentally self flagellate for. This is the one of the hardest things to overcome, but every step along the way will give your mind a little more room to find peace.

I found myself in a place where I was terribly miserable, isolated, and regretful. I didn't know it at the time but it was the gradual application of the above which helped pull me out of that place.

Adulthood is realizing most adults don't know what they're doing.

But I think a lot of men's issues is trying to confirm to the boomer's definition of "a man".

I have no idea why anyone would do that, but lots do.

And that link is about how some men can't get laid....

That right there is likely the main problem.

men feel isolated, unvalued by society, and dysfunctional,

And:

Not all guys have an ongoing sexual relationship with a woman.

Are not the same fucking thing. If you're looking for a single partner to fill all your emotional needs, you'll never be happy and you'll make the other person unhappy and eventually make them despise you. At best you'll end up with a problematic codependent relationship

I'll let you in on a secret: you can act and be perceived as a fully functional man while being a child inside. I could give you some examples but I'm sure you can think of some.

But it is also very important to not remove that from yourself or you'll turn into a boring old man.

The first thing was growing a beard. For a man aged say 18-25, having a beard makes people treat you like an adult, while being clean shaven you are treated as an adolescent. No I’m not joking.

Second for me was financial independence. Even a stupid things like exiting the cellular family plan.

Third I think is hobbies. When you gain self confidence in your skill in something you love, even if it’s just hiking or metal detecting, you may care less about others opinion of you.

Getting into philosophy and ethics. Contemporary Stoicism in particular is very freeing and empowering. Theres this concept in Stoicism (and Buddhism) of "dichotomy of control" where some things can't be controled like thoughts emerging or you dying but you can control your reaction to all of that.

Another concept from Stoicism that relates to community is the idea of "festival" which is basically being intentionally mindful of how awesome crowds are - the fact that a diverse group of people gather together for some shared activity or just to hang out is enough for you to enjoy it!

I pretended I was functional, and eventually I forgot I was pretending.

I started to really feel I was doing alright in my late twenties. Got less selfish, learned to accept my flaws, own my mistakes and be less of a dick. I learned to just bluntly admit that I don’t know certain things. Got even less competitive. And started to enjoy just listening to people. Worked wonders for my self-esteem. And it made me A LOT more likeable to be around.

Relevant: Arnold Schwarzenegger's famous speech, Don't Ever Call Me a Self-Made Man https://youtu.be/DOldEbWxgdQ (you can probably easily find it not on YouTube with a web search). It's not 100% what you asked but it's along the same lines.

Edit: full speech https://youtu.be/RJsvR_gSEjg

I take issue with "fully functioning". I believe no person on earth is fully functioning, at least not in the developed world. Everyone has to rely on others for some tasks, including basic tasks.

For me it's mostly cooking, which is a huge gap in my function.

Just off the top of my head:

• Cooking
• Cleaning
• Home maintenance
• Exercise
• Paperwork/bureaucracy
• Socializing (friends, family)
• Pets (optional)
• Children (optional)
• Work/Study
• Digital safety (e.g. using a password manager, keeping devices up to date, avoiding malware)
• Culture (books, movies, games etc.)
• News (at least on subjects you care about) from trustworthy sources
• Hobbies

I consider all of these necessary to be "fully functioning". I really don't see how it's possible for one person to have the time and the knowledge for all of these diverse tasks.

We're humans, and we live in a society. We specialize, and if we're lucky, we have people close to us who can fill in the gaps where we fall short.

I can't cook, and I rely on my family for proper food, otherwise I usually go for frozen stuff. But in return I make sure my family doesn't make any digital safety blunders, and I fix things around the house that my mother just wouldn't know where to start.

Loads of people hire a cleaner to regularly clean their home. Are they not able to clean for themselves? Are they not fully functioning? No, of course they could if you take cleaning in isolation, but they can't do everything, and more importantly, they can't do it to the same level of quality. Replace cleaning with whatever.

The fully functioning adult is a myth. Everyone offloads.

Didn't read many other comments, don't know if this was already said.

Mostly realizing that masculinity really is what you make of it. It doesn't need to be aspirational and probably shouldn't be. You are a man regardless of whether you fit anyone's expectations of that or not and the more people you find to become friends with who accept this radical fact the more comfortable you are to express masculinity without boundaries. Being able to be fully real without pretending to like or hate anything because you are "supposed to". Being able to express a full range of emotion without fear and talk about it occasionally. Not being held to a standard of sacrifice of the self for meaningless prizes which hold no lasting value.

Secondly - sometimes comfort is a trap. We seek comfort as a natural instinct and to have it sometimes is a good thing... But to find it and expect to live in it all the time makes your world smaller. Over time you lose the functionality that allows you to make changes and do the things that you need or want to. Pushing out little by little into the uncomfortable slowly expands the space and duration in which you can be functional and comfortable. Doing things you don't like, make you self conscious or put you temporarily in an environment that tires you out is training your mind to be tougher and more resilient. Go without comfort sometimes, treat it as exercise or nessisary medicine. Self-care is one thing but self-coddle will make whatever you tell yourself about not being able to handle things true. It is a sedentary lifestyle of the mind. Find a medium between points of comfort and vistas of discomfort to venture into and you will find less things hold you back, more stories you will have to tell and the more life you will feel like you have lived and the more rewarding your times of comfort become.

37 year old man here.

I have one single rule that has guided me into being a functional adult, and that is:

To be an adult, you have to understand when it is appropriate to be childish.

This covers a shit load of stuff.

You need to understand what...

..."childish" means
..."appropriate" means
... it means to apply these concepts in real life.

After going to therapy and taking medication for my depression, I was able to clear my mind enough to take improving myself seriously. What I did was:

1. Realize that, in reality, the vast majority of people don't give a damn about you, in the sense that only the weirdest and most annoying ones are going to judge you or look down on you; the rest generally won't care, and that's liberating.

2. Being more honest with myself, doing what I really want to do, and not feeling sorry or ashamed for saying no and setting boundaries.

3. Helping those around me when I see the opportunity. I used to see myself as useless, but now that I actively seek to help others and realize that it's not something others usually do, I feel better about myself.

4. Set and achieve goals. I am currently in the process of building my first Gaming PC and have been gathering the parts little by little, which has given me a great sense of accomplishment and makes me believe that I can achieve greater things.

5. Accept what I cannot change on my own and not let misfortunes get me down. Just as good times end, so do bad times.

6. Take responsibility for my mistakes, my screw-ups, and my prejudices. Analyze them and see what I can change, how to change it, and how I can make amends for any damage I have caused, even if it was not with bad intentions.

7. Stay true to my ideals and principles.

8. Never stop dreaming of a better and different future, and work little by little to achieve it. Pessimism only seems mature when you are 12 or 15 years old and know nothing about life. Life is beautiful, and the future is full of possibilities.

Perhaps the first thing was realizing that this is my life and it's up to me how to live it -- 'society' doesn't get to put any demands on me, and my life will be what it will be. With that being said, I probably lucked out to have parents who gave me opportunities without imposing burdensome expectations, and studying philosophy helped me to not follow them down paths that I thought were misguided, even when they put some mild pressure on me. Books are always a good way to realize that you aren't the only one with these doubts and ideas.

Second, is I have a decent job, which gives me some economic and social status. In some ways this was straight forward for me -- I was always studious and there always seemed to be some sort of obvious opportunity ahead of me that I was ready to pursue. There were several times when I seriously doubted the path I was on and felt a lot of anxiety, but things worked out eventually.

I don't have everything I want, and I see a lot of places I could improve in my time management and interpersonal interactions, but I feel pretty stable overall.

The feeling of isolation is something that I have experienced throughout life. I can only attribute it to the norm that men should not talk about their woes, lest they be seen as weak.

My upbringing was a bit different, as my brother and I never had male role models growing up and we were never encouraged to confirm to those norms.

For me personally, the feeling of isolation occured and eventually compounded after the birth of our son. I did not cope well with the lack of sleep and the immediate loss of personal space and time. I felt like my feelings and experiences could never compare to what my wife was going through, and I had no right to complain. This led me to nearly a decade of depression, to the detriment of my wife and son both.

What has helped me over time, is the acknowledgement that my feelings and experiences are valid, and I don't need to compare them to others.

that you feel helped you transition into adulthood

It felt like nothing and nobody helped. It just happened, and it took awfully long.

I identify and eliminate things from my life that I feel make it worse, and add things that I feel make it better. People, jobs, activities, anything.

I’m not sure what you’re asking about exactly. If it’s the key to happiness you’re after, I’ll let you know once I find it. But when it comes to meaning - and feeling like I’m valued by society - that shift happened for me when I went from being an employee to being self-employed.

In my old job, building mostly apartment blocks and schools, I never interacted with the end users. Nobody appreciated a job well done, and nobody ever said thank you. The only thing that mattered was how fast you got it done. It wasn’t much different from working on an assembly line.

These days, people call me when they’ve got a problem with their house and I show up to solve it. They’re usually relieved I’m there, and many are just as glad to have someone to talk to - especially the elderly, who make up about half my customer base. I’ve done everything from recovering lost TV channels to full kitchen remodels, with very few limits on what I can help with. People are almost always incredibly kind and hospitable - nearly everyone offers coffee and snacks, and a few even cook for me.

On top of that, I get a ton of repeat customers, which tells me they were satisfied with my previous work. Honestly, I can’t imagine a more fulfilling feeling than getting genuine gratitude for what I do.

I feel like an adult but I don't waste time worrying about whether I measure up to some arbitrary definition of manhood. Had a recent conversation with some friends where I said I didn't identify very strongly with my gender and they thought I was manifesting it quite clearly. Maybe the secret is not to worry about it?

I've realized that in my society, more or less, being human in general is worthless. Or more accurately, a person is as valuable as their latest income statement. I don't evaluate any person this way. Therefore I refuse to evaluate myself this way.

People's judgments are endless and contradictory. Because of this, many of us make their best effort to blend into the crowd, trying to conceal every part of themselves that doesn't fit into the norms. I've always taken this to mean that I should be true to myself. This makes a lot of people angry, but that just makes it easier to tell who should I avoid.

A few years ago I started a community that has now outgrown me. I made a few close (mostly female) friends, and as an introvert that's enough for me. I'm now more focused on strengthening those ties, keeping a door open for others who'd like to be part of my life.

In general, I try to live for my values, avoiding all ideologies, belief systems, political systems and other -isms. The more I go into this process, I'm finding my newer relationships more stable and fulfilling, even if not always easy to come by.

Just help people. Volunteer, help a neighbor carry groceries, pick up garbage on the side of the road. Do them for the act of doing them without reward or recognition. Just because it needs to be done. Do it earnestly and everything else falls into place.

Bit of an odd answer, but for me (and my wife), the last piece of the puzzle was really budgeting. The invisible, constant financial stress is a lot, and adds to that feeling of "pretending" when you're not even sure if buying groceries will cause a bill to bounce, let alone hanging out with friends who always seem to comfortably have the money to do whatever it is you're doing.

It's been several years now (early 30s, started budgeting in late 20s), it took us a while to figure it out and progress was slow, but I can "see the line" now, towards retirement, towards home ownership, we have no more credit card debt (just student loans left, which we're working on), and we budget "fun money" that I save up to make big purchases like a 7900XTX without any guilt or credit.

We're also having our first kid soon, and at least financially, I'm not stressed about it at all, which would've been impossible in our twenties. Getting our financials in hand and headed in the right direction has just done massive work in helping me feel like I know what I'm doing, and that our life is actually getting better rather than stuck in place.

a large number of men feel isolated, unvalued by society, and dysfunctional, but it's not 100%.

My solution to this has been to join a hobby that happens to check off a lot of criteria

• Physical exercise
• Interesting people
• Teaching and mentorship, with opportunities on both sides of that fence
• Camraderie
• Promotion of positive masculinity

For me that's the SCA, a medieval reenactment organization. But my local area has a lot of good people in the organization and unfortunately not every area is filled with great people. Plus, it's not everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine.

Never be afraid to ask questions.

Learn from your mistakes, but it's a lot easier to learn from others mistakes.

To me, masculinity means integrity, honesty, and decency.

Articulate your boundaries clearly and respectfully. Also understand your boundaries.

I've worked with a ton of working class guys who seem rugged on the outside. Most are reasonable and respond well to kindness and inquisitiveness.

Learn to ask inquisitive questions about someone's life, and they'll respond well and open up easily.

It's easier to focus on what's practical rather than getting mired in abstractions.

Just a few things off the tip of my brow.

For me it was separating those two things. Person is the type, man is subtype. Nothing in the subtype will change the type but any change in the type will impact the subtype. Find out what makes you a happy person and you'll by default be a happy man.

Dropping my standards for "functional" and being independent.

Get good at something people value. You will always be able to say, “I’m shite at a lot of things, I’m ugly, and unlikable, but at least I can __________”.

It doesn’t hurt to be physically active, too.

Therapy

Keep trying, take responsibility for failures and learn from them, be honest in everything, mature at least one skill to be valuable to your community, find those that need help and help them with mentorship and love, be patient (with yourself)

Might be a controversial take but it's my experience: psychedelics. Dramatically improved my self and general awareness, feel way more connected to existence and the rest is history.

The trick is:

1. Dosage. Keep it low to moderate.
2. Have a suitable mindset and location
3. Recognise them as tools to be used and put down once no longer needed.

I learned to be comfortable in my own skin by my late 20's. I realized that my interests and hobbies might not line up with everyone else's, but that I could prioritize my own wants and desires in a way that was both true to myself and could make my life easier.

Career wise, I bounced around with different fields and employers between about 5 cities in my adult life, before I found a role in my mid 30's that really fits my mild ADHD, where my strengths (good research and writing skills) are helpful and my weaknesses (absent mindedness, inability to sit still and focus on a single task for more than half an hour at a time) don't matter in this position.

Socially, I made lots of good friends in my 20's and 30's, and have a diversity of different types of friendships. I have a few groups of fun friends that I like doing certain activities with (one set of camping/hiking friends, another set of skiing friends, a bunch of groups of dinner party/dining out friends, a bunch of neighborhood parents for hanging out with in kid friendly places). And between some of the individual friends, some are great for emotional support when going through tough times, and I try to reciprocate when they're going through tough times, too.

My parents had church, but I'm not religious anymore, but I still try to build that level of regular in-person contact with the same people through my other recurring meetings: a designated weekly kids night at a neighborhood pizza place, a monthly happy hour with a group of friends that I work near but not with, rotating dinner parties/backyard BBQs with another core group.

And in my early 30's, I met a partner who just gets me (and vice versa), so we got married. Our quirks complement each other, and we can cover each other's weaknesses. I love parenting with her, and our household just works really well. We make each other better, and that has generally translated into building up strong foundations for relationships across both friendships and our professional networks, so that we are both in a good place socially and in our careers (which has helped our respective incomes skyrocket since we've met, so we're basically rich now).

Not everything is sunshine and rainbows, but having a good base helps getting through the tougher experiences that life inevitably throws our way.

A job that feels reasonable meaningful was probably the biggest game changer for me

You keep going at it. You try to make yourself a better person, bit by bit, and forgive yourself for your mistakes. You work to understand your own neurosis and patterns of emotion and find ways to work on them. I still feel dysfunctional sometimes, but it's a pattern that I've learned not to fall into fully.

You talk about being fully functional and then about being isolated. Which is it? What are you really asking about?

masculine is specific, do you mean as earning a muscular body, some people only feel good if they have attractive body.

Lovely friends, lively work, and having to routinely deal with people who have their shit together even less than me :).

That, plus philosophy and LSD. Though rarely at the same time

The biggest thing that helped me was art. I've played music most of my life, and made the decision to move out to a city with a great music scene 4 years ago where I knew nobody. It took me 3 years of exploring open mic communities and such for me to finally find the one for me. Built up an amazing friend group from there and I feel so emotionally and artistically fulfilled now! I was so lonely those first 3 years, but the second I found my people it was night and day. I think the best thing everyone can do is hone in on a hobby you love and connect with the community surrounding it if you can, sometimes the hobby can be enough too though!