Ask Lemmy

The unsatisfying answer: you're both a little bit right.

You're correct that times have changed somewhat. But I think it's overkill to say that "approaching women at all unless you have business with them is disrespectful and borderline harassment".

Of course, context matters a lot. Don't bother women at their jobs, the bank is not a lady zoo. But in a social situation where you would expect to meet other people, it's fine to strike up a conversation with strangers or even ask them out.

However, by your own admission you don't get out much. So I'm assuming you don't get a lot of situations like bars or parties where this would happen. So I would try networking in your community, develop some hobbies, go to functions where you might meet someone in this manner.

I'll just say you probably shouldn't take dating advice from people who haven't done any dating for the last 30-40 years. The world has most certainly changed.

Just learn to talk to all people in social situations, and don't make it transactional.

The right people will just drop into your life naturally.

I think there's a lot of nuance that both sides of this are missing. There's a lot of middle ground between not talking to women out in the world at all, and going up to random girls and saying "nice shoes, wanna fuck?

You absolutely can approach people, strike up a conversation, maybe even hit it off and spin it into a friendship or romantic relationship.

I'm far from the guy to tell someone how to do that and try to pick apart the it's and outs of what makes some things ok and others not, but it is something that absolutely can be done.

This thread is not meant for autistic people.

"Yes you can talk to women in public, but also not flirt with them even though that's the obvious context of the post, but also there are some public places you can flirt with them that are somehow different from the other public places, and also it's fine in the places where it isn't."

I've come to the conclusion from this thread that the answer lies somewhere near "actually some women hate it and some women don't, and since the only way to find out which is which is by stepping on the landmine, you might as well flirt with anyone you want at wherever you see them, but do it politely and move on if she says no."

And in all honesty, yeah fuck it, I'm gonna. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, but being that the other option is "die alone and get eaten by my cats" I think it's just going to have to happen.

Do you ever make small talk with men with whom “you don’t have business?”

I’m assuming yes, you probably do. Speaking with women is the same, just be sure to pick up on cues if they don’t want to speak. In fact, I’d advise you to practice by making small talk with everyone you can, with no agenda, and pay attention to their cues.

Woman here: I'm not annoyed if a person I don't know talks to me, as long as a) they don't interrupt something I'm doing to have conversation and b) they read my body language and fuck off again the moment it's clear I'm not interested. But asking me questions when I have my headphones in to talk about inane shit while I roll my eyes? Nah.

Both of you are right and wrong, it's not so black and white.

You absolutely can make friends, chat with people at the bus stop, strike up convos at bars, the local ski resort, bike park, etc. Friendships can naturally blossom into relationships (or remain friendships, which is healthy and natural too).

You can't approach people and immediately ask them out, it feels weird and unappreciated (and that goes both ways, I've had a complete 180° role reversal and it was still weird and gross).

You're young, you have plenty of time, and honestly the weirdest thing about all this is that your parents are worried you're gay, like there's something wrong with that. There's barely any differences between genders, people overhyped the shit out of it in church, tbh.

Anyways, any% dating really doesn't work, and I feel like your parents should know that. Don't even try for dating, everyone can sense desperation. Just dgaf and focus on having fun and making friends. Love will naturally evolve out of good friendships.

Do you talk to men you don't know in public? Small talk, or jokes at a bar? In the grocery store? Why wouldn't you talk to women? I am a woman and have daughters and none of us is offended by this, nor even the hypersensitive one, not even the lesbian. It's friendly talk.

It's harassment if you don't stop when you get a rejection. It's harassment if you sidle up with some horrifying personal comment about her body, or grab her arm and make her listen. You aren't going to do any of that. Small talk is not harassment, flirting is not harassment.

You are right in one way - it was bad that guys used to be able to say anything with absolute impunity, and women couldn't stop them, I was around for the end of that. Those guys didn't treat women like people, but in a way, neither are you, right? We are just people, talk to us like people.

It's pretty clear what the consensus is here. Yes, talk with women. You can even (politely) hit on women you fancy. Based on your statement about yourself it's unlikely you would be pushy and threatening if she said no, but still, just understand when to stop.

Next question is how to get there from where you are. You're scared you would be seen as a threat, harassing women just by talking to them out of the blue. So you doubtless have little experience talking with women. That's where you are.

I see two possible paths to take. Which one is right depends on why you feel that way. If it's an emotional issue, like if you (for instance) start shaking and sweating at the thought of walking up to a woman and introducing yourself, then maybe start by talking with a therapist. They can be really helpful. On the other hand if you are just nervous because you don't know how to talk with a woman then look into learning how to make small talk. It's actually a skill. It's something you can learn. And once you have learned it and practiced it enough that you are comfortable with it, then approaching and talking with a woman is just about starting and having a conversation. You can even practice with guys if it makes you more comfortable. A quick google search produces a bunch of good ideas on how to start.

Now you have homework. Learn how to carry a conversation. Learn to make people feel comfortable around you. Learn to actually be interested in other people. It shows and it makes a difference.

EDIT: In a reply to another comment you mentioned severe violence in your childhood and the resultant fear as a major deterrent in approaching people. That's definitely something to see a therapist about. You can work through stuff like that in time. And you'll be amazed how much more free you feel once you have.

There's a difference between "approaching women" and "APPROACHING WOMEN."

You should be comfortable interacting with women in any environment simply because a) they are human beings and b) they're over 50% of the population.

You can't go outside and just never talk to women, that's actually creepier.

You don't have to be trying to pick someone up to, you know, treat them like a human being and talk to them.

I'm forty, so a different generation than your parents, but I still grew up and had my first dating experiences before the internet. Online dating wasn't really a thing here until I was in my early twenties.

At least where I grew up the guys who randomly approached girls to ask them out were seen as creepy even back in the 90s. I and everyone I knew met partners through activities like sports clubs, parties, bars etc. (I'm not from the US, so people from my school started going to bars pretty early). While there wasn't a big discourse around men approaching women in public (or none that reached my little town), we did have some guys in town who'd just walk up to girls on the street and ask them out and the consensus was that they were weird and should be avoided.

I met all my partners so far through activities. My first boyfriend was a regular at the same student café and we ended up sitting next to each other during quiz night. I met guys I had dates with in uni - sitting next to each other during lectures and talking about the Prof, going to the same presentation or cooking night etc. None of them "approached me" in the sense of coming up to me and asking "can I have your number" with zero context. We chatted, had an interesting conversation. At the end we exchanged contact information to meet for a coffee, usually without any expectation of it being a date. When coffee went well, someone would ask the other out on a proper date. No approaching, no deciding within a few seconds wether you want to date someone. Just casually getting to know each other before asking for more.

I also met my husband that way. We went to the same event, talked, had a lot in common. We met the next day to continue a discussion about a certain topic we were both interested in. That's when things started getting flirty and by the end we made plans to meet for a real date. I don't even remember who asked whom, we were both heavily flirting with each by the time we talked about seeing each other again so it was very obvious the next meeting would be a date. He didn't ask me out out of nowhere or hit on me, we were just getting to know new people and eventually we started flirted somewhere along the line.

Learning how to engage and socialize with people of both sexes is a necessary skill. As long as your not being a toxic mess in front of them, you're fine.

Got a bit tangled there bud and you're horseshoeing

If you never approach women unless you have business with them then you're treating them as things to have business with or romantic entanglements.

Try just treating us as people. You can have friends, you know.

It's okay to approach and have normal conversations with women that you don't have business or school commonalities with. Even if you think you may have interest to eventually escalate it into dating. Just be genuine and don't try to be someone you're not. But once you make that attempt to date, if they say no, accept that no and don't try again unless it's blatantly obvious they've changed their mind.

If you wouldn't strike up a conversation with a guy, don't strike up a conversation with a woman. Be comfortable with conversations with strangers of whatever gender with no ulterior motive, and you'll meet more people.

If you meet more people, your likelihood of finding dates will increase as a side effect.

If you are only approaching women, particularly women you find attractive, in places that are not generally for that purpose (bars, parties, swingers clubs), then you're being a creep.

But regardless, it's better to have interests, pursue those interests, and meet people with similar interests. Because when you have interests, you might become interesting, and someone might become interested.

If they make eye contact and smile you can chat them up. That's the secret. They won't smile or look at you if they don't want you to talk to them.

First, they need to find better things to worry about. pressing this is exactly how you end up with regrettable relationships. Second, ignore the gender. Treat women like people. If a situation comes up, like someone makes a scene at the front of a line you are both in, strike up a conversation about that. See where it goes. Lasting things occur organically. That being said, "she's hot and I want to be inside her" is not a good enough reason to strike up a conversation with someone. Appreciate the sight but don't try to capitalize on it.

In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.

I don't agree with this. You can approach women in public and talk to us without it being harassment. If you approach someone and they tell you to leave them alone and you don't or they're obviously uncomfortable and you persist then it's harassment.

For some context: I'm not as old as your parents but I'm older than you (I'm late 30s).

I think you're both a little right. Yeah, they grew up in a world where it was generally more socially acceptable to approach strange women on the street than it is today. But that doesn't mean that you're never allowed to do it, either.

I think it'd be good to takeaway a bit of both arguments. Yes, you shouldn't harass women on the street, but also it's totally fine to talk to women as long as you're respectful and take the hint if they're not interested.

I think the bigger issue here is that you are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of approaching people in public and your parents are treating this as irrelevant and something you are supposed to just force yourself to do it anyway despite feeling like the situation is wrong and threatening. You shouldn't need to justify not wanting to do that by appealing to some kind of cultural authority about what is acceptable to society.

Personally even as a man it normally freaks me out when strangers approach me in public. It just feels like a very unusual, unexpected and potentially unsafe kind of circumstance, almost never something positive, there's no way I would trust such a person, so I'm not going to do that to others because it's like I would be inflicting that on both of us simultaneously, and that would of course come through in any interaction I attempted. How could I expect them to be receptive to that when I would never be myself? People may argue, that's the wrong way to feel and so it doesn't matter, replace that attitude with a better one, as if they themselves could easily substitute a totally different way of being for how they are.

If you need an invitation in order to feel safe in a social situation, I would say it is ok to demand that people respect that and not mock you for it.

I don’t mind if a man initiates a conversation with me. I don’t mind if anyone initiates a conversation with me. I only mind when I use words like, “no, thank you”, and they persist. Listen to the word NO.

You might be out of touch, but it depends on what you mean about approaching people. For example, it's perfectly reasonable to talk to anyone at all for a wide variety of reasons, including things related to your hobbies or your jobs or simply because you're waiting for the bus. Conversation is generally a safe thing to do with other human beings. If you are specifically avoiding conversations with people because they are women, then I think you should rethink your position.

Maybe your parents are asking you to start flirting with people, which is totally different from simply talking to them. If that's the topic, then it makes sense to be somewhat more careful about the time and place.

Your parents are right. It is absolutely a skill that you should learn. The 'times have changed' crowd just haven't stepped up to the new level of difficulty.

It is not wrong to strike up a conversation with a stranger so long as the setting is appropriate and you pick up on the clues they give on whether the interaction is welcome or not. That is the skill you're learning.

Whether it is technically 'necessary' is debatable, but it is antisocial to flat out avoid doing so by definition.

Instead of making a move or straight up asking the out on a date. Just strike up a convo. You can really tell when someone doesn't want to push a conversation. Maybe they find you attractive and keep the conversation going?

If you want to cold approach, go to the club.

You're not wrong, but you've got a bit of an extreme take on it. I think you and your parents may have different thoughts on what it means to "approach" a woman though. I'm going to use "flirt" to refer to talking to a woman with intent of seeing if they would make a good partner for you and just "talk" to indicate just being friendly with someone.

it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman who doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers

No, it's fine to talk to strangers of any gender in public. Approaching them and flirting with them is not. As long as you can roughly understand when you're making someone uncomfortable and stop it, you're not going to come off as a creep/predator. Stuck in a lineup in a store? Chat with someone beside you, maybe commiserate about how long the line is. If you want to flirt with them, then yes the situations you mentioned are definitely the places to do that.

(sort of an aside: whether "meeting friends of friends" is an appropriate situation to flirt with someone you just met is still situation dependent)

They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner.

Approaching women in random public spaces with the intent of finding a partner is also a pretty bad idea. While it could work, it's definitely creep/predator behaviour so I avoid it. It's very likely to make them uncomfortable, since they're just trying to do their thing not get hit on. This can easily be harassment, though I'm on the fence on whether it's always harassment.

Personally I like to flip the genders on situations like this and ask if I'd want to be the other person in this situation. It's worth keeping in mind that woman have way more statistical reasons to be weary/wary of any interaction with men, though. Regardless, e.g. if some woman was beside me in line and started chatting with me, I'd be fine with it. If some woman came up to me and complimented my shirt, I'd be fine with it. If some woman came up to me, complimented my shirt, and then asked for my number I'd be weirded out (I don't know you, lady). If some woman came up to me and asked me to take out my earbuds to commiserate about how long the line is, I'd be annoyed that I'm missing my music.

It is an important skill and confidence booster to approach people in general in public. If you are uncomfortable with women, then start with men.

If that is still uncomfortable, then that means you are uncomfortable to talking with strangers in general. Unfortunately, experience is the only way to combat this. Start small with chit chat in lines, compliment people on their shoes, etc.

Yes and no. Now I'm not an expert womanizer by any means, but you kinda just gotta treat attractive women like regular people.

You can't just walk up to somebody and go "ooga booga, wanna go out?" It's gotta be a little casual. So you're kind of right. But to go as far as to say you can't strike up conversation with somebody will be insane.

Now am I going to strike up a conversation with an attractive woman? Nah I'm go pussyshit to do anything, I'll partake in my recreational activities and hope for the best, at least I'll die doing what I like.