this post was submitted on 01 May 2025
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Our waterways are becoming more and more polluted due to PFAS, plastics, medicines, drugs, and new chemicals made by companies that just hand over the responsibility of cleaning to plants paid for by public moneys. Detecting the different chemicals and filtering them out if getting harder and harder. Could the simple solution of heating up past a point where even PFAS/forever chemicals decomposes (400C for PFAS, 500C to be more sure about other stuff) be alright?

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[–] LostXOR@fedia.io 95 points 4 days ago (12 children)

Yes; this is something that has been studied. However as other commenters have said it requires a lot of energy, and is better suited for processing smaller quantities of water with a high level of PFAS contamination than massive quantities of water with an extremely low level of PFAS. It's also not a standalone solution, as plenty of harmful chemicals survive heating past 400/500C (heavy metals like cadmium, lead, and mercury do not break down at any temperature).

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 18 points 4 days ago (4 children)

Thank you for the only response that actually answers the main question and linking to a scientific paper. Much appreciated.

Regarding harmful chemicals that do not decompose beyond 500C, could it be more likely that the number of such chemicals/materials (known and unknown) is much lower than the number of chemicals/materials at the temperatures used for current clarification processes?

[–] LostXOR@fedia.io 7 points 4 days ago

Always good to do a quick search of the literature to make sure your intuition about something is actually correct; I too thought "no way" when I first saw your question.

I don't think only heating water to 500C would remove more harmful chemicals than a typical full treatment process, as they have a lot of steps to filter various things out, but I don't have a source for that.

Even if it did, there's still the issue of heating up the water taking an enormous amount of energy, which is probably a dealbreaker. My local wastewater plant treats 40 million gallons a day, which by a quick calculation would take 150 GWh to heat, 83% the daily energy consumption of the whole of Minnesota. That can be reduced significantly with heat exchangers but even 1% of that would be far too expensive.

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[–] Brainsploosh@lemmy.world 62 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (7 children)

Raising water temperature from 10 to 500 degrees requires about 500 calories/mm3. That's 2 MJ/litre, meaning if you want to heat 1 liter/second you need 2 MW with perfect insulation, so a power plant of say 10 MW.

A post industrial world citizen could probably get by on 200 l/day (US averages about 300/day). That needs 2 kW/person/day.

Total global energy production is about 630 EJ which averages out at about 12 TW.

Meaning if the whole global energy production went to treat water in that way, we have enough clean water for about 6 million people.

[–] Redex68@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago (2 children)

How the hell do people use that much water? Are they including water consumption needed for the products we use or? Let's say a flush is 8L and the average person flushes 5 times a day, that's 40L. The average person needs about 2L of water a day. Let's say an average shower is 100L. Cleaning dishes at worst is probably like 20L per person without a dishwasher. That's like 160L of water per day and I feel like most of those were over-estimates. How did they get to that number?

[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 11 points 4 days ago (4 children)
[–] atro_city@fedia.io 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)
[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 7 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

How much water do you believe AI consumes? The 31 billion land animals we keep in captivity and the crops we grow to feed them dwarf most human water consumption.

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

The global AI demand may even require 4.2 – 6.6 billion cubic meters of water withdrawal in 2027, which is more than the total annual water withdrawal of 4 – 6 Denmark or half of the United Kingdom

https://oecd.ai/en/wonk/how-much-water-does-ai-consume

AI's projected water usage could hit 6.6 billion m³ by 2027

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cindygordon/2024/02/25/ai-is-accelerating-the-loss-of-our-scarcest-natural-resource-water/

[–] HiddenLychee@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (7 children)

That's a lot, but by some back of the envelope math I calculated that American consumption of cheese alone uses four times that amount in a year.

Based on this, 4 oz of cheese uses 450 liters of water. https://foodprint.org/blog/dairy-water-footprint/

Based on this, the average American consumes 41 lbs of cheese per year. Each lb of cheese uses 1800 liters of water per the above. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183785/per-capita-consumption-of-cheese-in-the-us-since-2000/

That means that each US citizen uses 73,800 liters of water per year on cheese alone.

Multiply that by 340E6, the US population, you get 25 trillion liters of water per year. That's 25 billion cubic meters of water a year.

Not that AI is environmentally friendly by any stretch, but dairy is the equivalent of like, a dozen AI industries all stacked on top of each other. Feel free to check my math and correct me as needed.

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[–] Initiateofthevoid@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Dishwashing is a significant underestimate here, and don't forget hand-washing (before/after bathroom, food, cleaning...).

Plus you missed outdoor and gardening, which would help explain why the Land of the ~~Free~~ Lawns uses more than anybody else.

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[–] TerranFenrir@lemmy.ca 53 points 5 days ago (20 children)

Let's assume that heating water to 500C does what you want it to do. Even then, the sheer amount of energy required to do this would be massive. It would just be incredibly uneconomical to do this, when other cheaper solutions (like not polluting in the first place) exist.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 47 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Not only that, but given that heating up volumes of water is basically the metric around which energy units and calculations are all derived, it's easy to determine just how much energy.

Assuming an inlet temperature of a fairly optimistic 60°F or 15.56°C, it takes 12,934,470.48 joules to heat one US gallon of water to 500°C. Or if you prefer, possibly because you're an American used to reading your electricity bill, 3.59 kWh to heat that gallon. Just one.

The EPA estimates that just in the US alone, wastewater plants treat 34 billion, with a B, gallons of water per day. No need to get out your calculator, that's 122,060,000,000 kWh or if you prefer, just under 11.5 times the existing average daily power production of the entire country (10,640,243 MWh, if you're wondering).

So, uh. Yeah. Probably not feasible.

[–] lemming741@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

You'd have heat exchangers, like a desalination plant

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-stage_flash_distillation

Such plants can operate at 23–27 kWh/m3 (appr. 90 MJ/m3) of distilled water.[5]

So still impossible, but not unfathomable

edit:
122,060,000,000 kWh becomes
003,500,000,000 kWh

About a third of the national capacity

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 7 points 5 days ago (11 children)

when other cheaper solutions (like not polluting in the first place) exist

That involves convincing your polluting cousin, who doesn't believes climate change doesn't exist, not to buy non-stick pans or not to dump their pills into the toilet.

Edit:

Let's assume that heating water to 500C does what you want it to do.

That's the question I'm asking btw.

[–] naught101@lemmy.world 8 points 5 days ago (2 children)

You could always regulate and ban toxics at the point of production or sale, before they get into the waste stream

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[–] ptc075@lemmy.zip 28 points 4 days ago (16 children)

At the risk of sounding silly - Instead of focusing on burning the solids, boil the water. Water boils at 100C, at which point the water vapor should separate and leave all the solids behind. Then capture the vapors and condense it back down into clean water. Now, if you later want to incinerate the leftover solids, sure, go for it, fire's always cool in my book.

I'll add, simply boiling water is energy intensive. What you are proposing probably won't work at any scale.

[–] MajorMajormajormajor@lemmy.ca 11 points 4 days ago

fire's always cool in my book.

I think you're doing fire wrong, friendo.

[–] I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Golly gee, if only there were some form of energy generation that required boiling vast amounts of water to turn into steam. But no, that would be silly.

[–] neukenindekeuken@sh.itjust.works 7 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You definitely wouldn't want to drink the water from any of those systems you're describing though :)

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[–] x00z@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago

I thought about this too for a while but I learned that even rain contains microplastics.

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 4 points 4 days ago

That might be possible but there are particles that also will be present in vapor which might be toxic. Simply sending the out into the atmosphere would probably not be a good idea. PFAS for example do not break down under ~400C and just creating a fine PFAS mist is probably not what we want.

But yes, of course while heating up the water there will be residue. How to dispose of that will probably also have to be thought of. Maybe 500C is also the answer, but I don't know.

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[–] specialseaweed@sh.itjust.works 23 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (5 children)

No. The far more likely way to handle it is with flocculation/coagulation since plants are already set up to support this.

Edit: the quick and dirty overview: shit water comes in. Chlorine and other chemicals are added to the water which kills the bad stuff. Polymers are added to the water which binds to the chlorine, causing chunks. Chunks removed. Water discharged. You can change the polymers used to bind specifically to which pollutant is coming in.

That part of the process is called flocculation. Using it to add polymers that have additional capability (like removing microplastic) is where you’d want to do it. The cost is the polymer which would be some sort of reasonable, not rebuilding every plant that exists to boil water.

Check out the video on the flocculation page. Does a great job of showing how floc works.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flocculation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wastewater_treatment&wprov=rarw1

[–] Waterdoc@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

For simplicity, this process is called clarification.

Unfortunately, coagulants are not effective at removing PFAS. The only effective methods for PFAS removal are adsorption (using granular activated carbon or ion exchange resins) or reverse osmosis filtration. These approaches are not used in traditional wastewater treatment because they are very expensive and are not required to meet registrations. However, potable reuse facilities will use these approaches to further treat wastewater effluent to drinking water standards. This is the future of water supply for arid areas like the southwest USA.

Also PS, the most commonly used coagulants are aluminum sulphate (alum) and ferric sulphate, which are not polymers. Polymers definitely are used (especially where I live) but they are more expensive and thus avoided when not needed.

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[–] Brkdncr@lemmy.world 13 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Where does the energy to do that come from.

[–] wildncrazyguy138@fedia.io 5 points 5 days ago

Same place as nearly everything else, the Sun.

[–] zxqwas@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)

That sounds expensive.

And the chemicals decompose into what? How do you get whatever they decompose into out of the water?

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[–] AstralPath@lemmy.ca 8 points 5 days ago (4 children)

I'm not a scientist but wouldn't the atmospheric pressure need to be insane to bring the boiling point of water to 500°C? Is that even possible?

500C is above the critical temperature for water. So it would probably be a supercritical fluid. Unless the pressure was above 10 GPa or so in which case it would be solid.

Its above the critical point, so water will be a supercritical fluid. 370 C already requires 217 atm of pressure.

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[–] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 8 points 3 days ago (10 children)

This would be carcinogenic beyond imagination

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[–] robato@lemmy.world 5 points 4 days ago (7 children)

Molten Salt Nuclear Reactors (like the one China's making with thorium) operate at something like 700* C to generate electricity. With the waste heat, we could desalinate water. Instead of Yucca Mountain as a nuclear waste repository, it becomes Yucca Mountain Molten Salt Nuclear Reactor and brackish groundwater distillation for Las Vegas.

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[–] YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today 4 points 4 days ago

The temperature will be impossible to maintain at any scale. Why do you think our high end computers use "water cooling"?

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