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this post was submitted on 29 May 2025
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I'm going to give an honest answer, but i fully expect to be downvoted and demonized for doing so. Nothing I can do about that, but op, you want an honest answer, this is it. I'll also add that I would 100% consider myself leftist, in fact, extremely leftist in most of my views. Why the hell would my username be what it is and why the hell would I be on lemmy if I wasn't... anyway... here's the answer since you asked for it:
The large majority of jews I know, including myself and my family feel like this current war is the fault of Hamas. Oct 7 doesn't happen, this war doesn't happen. We also are continually annoyed by the fact that most people on the left, constantly refuse to acknowledge that Hamas has been pushing this war forward non-stop for decades. All you have to do is look up number of missiles launched at Israel since 2000 to see that. People no-doubt try to rebut this by saying "but Israel has been stealing territory". My constant response to that is they have been taking territory to establish buffer zones to enhance security. As almost all of this land has been taken after conflict. Israel even tried to give back some of this land, but was then attacked again, and had to take land back in order to protect itself -- But eventually our conversation just goes back to why this is even happening and we are always frustrated by the fact that any argument from the left condemning Zionists always begins in 1948 -- when in fact the troubles of the region started hundreds of years before that. This pre-1948 history seems to never be brought up however. So the blame is always cast 100% on jews and all of the attacks on Jewish civilians within Israel are never ever given the time of day.
It's incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into "jews are evil", and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it. Jews are never going to willingly leave Israel and Hamas is never going to stop trying to eradicate jews. There are only 16ish million jews on the planet and almost 2 billion Muslims. There is no way jews could ever win this propaganda war. I think a lot of jews who feel they are on the left side of the political spectrum are too scared to even speak about their feelings on Israel/Palestine at the moment, because they know they are going to be vastly outnumbered and demonized, by those they would usually consider friends, with anything they say. So most of us are silent on the subject because we don't want to be ostracized.
I will end this by saying, we of course feel bad for civilians caught in the crossfire, but we feel like Jewish civilians are not given that same respect. The sentiment we get is that Jewish civilians seem to deserve it.
I appreciate the honesty but you seem to be missing the perspective that:
The existence of the State of Israel is an explicit British colonization project and currently exists as a puppet state of "the empire".
The power imbalance between the state of Israel and Hamas and the repeated, and well documented, war crimes and ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the State of Israel.
Left wing vs Right wing is a false dichotomy. You will have opinions and viewpoints of both matter your political self identification and they are poorly defined.
I would be curious to know your opinions about the judenrätes of WWII (whether they were heroes or villains, left wing vs right wing, etc.) and how the current State of Israel is not just a continuation of that?
I don't know enough about the Judenrates to give an opinion on the subject. It looks like an interesting topic though, so I will read up on it.
edit: on my brief reading abotu Judenrates during wwii i get the distinct impression that these were people thrust into leadership positions that they may or may have not have wanted. They were used by the Nazis to potentially make impossible choices that hurt their fellow community members, but they had to make these choices or else their community would have suffered even more harm. They had to make "lesser of the evils" choices. I imagine these choices often made their community members dislike them, whether or not the Judenrates were making these choices with intention of doing the best they could for their people.
I'm curious where you find a connection between these WWII Judenrates and present day Israel?
Immigration is not the same as colonization. When immigrating to a location (even mass migration) the power dynamics do not allow for the migrating group to dominate the local group. Colonization is when that power dynamic is flipped.
Again power dynamics and scale are the most important factor here. If someone punches you that does not give you the right to murder their whole family. If someone peacefully barged their way into your home and you to leave what would your response be?
Yes, but why did Nazi Germany form them? What was their purpose in the machine?
I think it would be more productive for you to do a bit of reading and come back with what you think I'm getting at. I think answering that now would color the perception and make it harder to learn about a very important political concept.
we could have a big argument on the power dynamics you're talking about, and I don't really want to, but I will note the slew of pogroms in the middle east and ask you read about why the Bar Giora was formed. This was not a one sided affair.
and you talk about murdering whole families as if that wasn't the intent of pogroms. Again, both perspectives need to be taken into account.
as for the stuff about the Judenrates, I don't really want to play games with you. Tell me what your point is or drop it.
There is zero big argument about power dynamic, Israel could easily reoccupy all territories if Hamas do not stop launching rockets after ending colonization
It so easy to go back to history and cherry pick violence from any side . For example Jewish kingdom did force conversion to Judaism and destroy villages , no jew should be hated for events like that just like Palestinians has no culpability in war happen in pogroms made by Arabs and even Christians .
Despite the mufti effort, most Arab sided with allies and not the Nazi Germany. 13k Palestinians volunteered to fight . There was Yemeni jews that migrated to Palestine and Palestinians and them was visiting each other festivities . During the Reconquista it was the ottoman and African speaking Arabic countries who accepted jews to the land they control
I don't justify violence but there was violence because Palestinians started to realize Zionists intention to force a state on local people . During the violence there was also other Arabs protecting the jews. Like in Hebron massacres over 400 jews was saved by their Arab neighbors.
Once the state of Israel was created they could have lived in it but instead decided in 67 to occupy Gaza and west bank and started building settlements making a two state solution impossible
I understand that you are trying to draw a direct line from the modern IDF to a historic Jewish Resistance Movement. However, I would argue that it was coopted by foreign powers and abandoned it's goal of an independent jewish state after it's transformation into the Haganah and transitioned from a defensive force (largely support) to a colonizing force (don't support).
I do not support the Ottoman empire in its persecution of religious minorities. However, I do not see how your logic and worldview wouldn't support the Ottomans in persecuting the Jewish people at the time due to their militant tactics. What perspective am I missing?
The point is controlled opposition, perverse incentives, and the power/danger of "sell outs".
Guess I missed the Palestinian pogroms which justified Israel's genocidal war on the Palestinian people.
The time period they are referencing (old history at this point...) the Ottoman empire was in control of the area and it operated as something of an apartheid state. Pogroms, persecution and oppression absolutely happened. However it was mostly a new import from western Europe. Jewish citizens were second class but they were still "people of the book" and fared much better for most of the empire's history.
However, understanding a bit more history there is a direct through line from those historical wrongs and the modern Palestinian genocide. It is just a continuation of the Spanish, Portuguese and British (amongst others) campaign against ethnicly semetic peoples that the Jewish people also historically fell victim to.
Every time Hamas launched rockets, it was in response to Israel expelling more Palestinians from the West Bank and to increased violence by settlers.
Please please oppose and put pressure on Israel occupation so atrocities end on both side
I appreciate your forthrightness, and on many points we quite agree, notably noone's keen to leave and that the current charged atmosphere around the war does chill honest representation of one's ideals.
That said, while this particular war was the result of Hamas and their October 7 attack, I believe that if not them, some other group would "lead the charge" maybe it would have been more of a single flashpoint or a series of smaller skirmishes, but conflict was (and continues to be) inevitable under the circumstances that Palestinians and Israelis live in.
I want to inquire further on your take that Israeli buffer zones are the land theft so demonized by the anti-Zionists. We see the expansion of the buffer zone in Syria as a landgrab because any security buffer sufficient for defense against the Assad regime should be more than enough, especially when paired with Israeli strikes on weapons caches and bases in Syria. The more puzzling point, though, is the establishment of new settlements and growth of existing settlements in the West Bank even as recently as this week.
I cannot defend the establishment of new settlements in taken territories. All I can say is palastine has had plenty of chances to maintain and keep their territories. Like I've said, Israel even tried to hand back large amounts of land, but that was jut followed by palistinian attack. Over and over again Hamas has decided that peace is not the way forward. I don't believe this is the fault of the average Palistinian though. I believe this is the fault of the palistinian leadership which uses these wars like a piggy bank. Robbing their people of billions in aid money while living in luxury in Quatar and other arab states. They're not waging these wars because they think they can win. They are doing it because they think they can profit. And I strongly believe, hell, I know, that Russia had a huge hand in pushing Hamas toward Oct 7 in order to distrac the west from Ukraine. If we're being honest, its was an absolutely masterful move by Putiin because, it 1. distracted from Ukraine and 2. split liberal voters in the west. And I think this really needs to be acknowledged a lot more than it is.
I'll say this though. I do not believe a two state solution is realistic or possible. The hatred of palistinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated. This system of indoctrination of Palistinian youth needs to be completely dismantled for there to be a lasting peace. And I don't think that will ever happen while a seperate (from Israel) Palastine exists. I think Israel knows this well, and what we're seeing now is Israel trying to unite the two lands through force. They are trying to end the war for good. Israel and Palestine need to be one nation. And arabs and Israelis need to learn to live in peace. It is the only sustainable path forward.
Why did Palestinians start hating Jews?
What did Israel do to help resolve that conflict?
Which side has disproportionately taken casualties throughout the history of the nation?
Which side has a military doctrine which allows for nuking any invading force?
I think #1 is probably a good starting point to come to grips with the reasons for the Palestinian people fighting, literally, for survival.
Not even Israel really believe the deals was great deal to Palestinians. Israel should give back all occupied land expect Israel it self of course unconditionally
This is exactly the same excuse people was saying to justify maintaining the apartheid in south Africa. They claimed that black people would get vengeance on white people . There is many example of successful reconciliations between countries , population and groups in civil wars
If it's any kind of comfort to you, I got radicalized against Zionism by jews. A lot of jewish observers are fighting to free Palestine.
I did hear some palestinian or muslim speak out against Israel's inhuman apartheid state, but jews have been making the best case I've heard for freeing palestine.
Can you elaborate on how 9/11 was the fault of the Jewish occupation? It seems like your claim is "Terrorists were striking back in response to a series of aggressions dating back to 1948/even earlier Jewish transgressions" then I don't buy it. Islamic eschatology is the reason for 9/11, combined with classic power struggles and posturing within that subculture.
I do agree that the settler movement and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is why Oct. 7th happened tho, 100%. Hamas is a terror organization fueled by Israel's racist, ethnic cleansing movement. That dynamic is never going to be solved until Israel completes its inevitable genocide of the Palestinian people.
Source: Osama Bin Laden's Open Letter to the American People
https://pages.astronomy.ua.edu/white/worldviews/binladen.txt
Thanks for the direct quote, I appreciate you citing a source. The letter has quite a few grievances and meanders a bit, but at it's core it's really all about Islamic Eschatology - hastening the final day of judgement by sparking a worldwide holy war. The targets of Al Qaeda were basically "any target of opportunity" with a preference towards the west if possible. If (obviously impossible) Israel had suddenly reconciled and left all of Palestine, imo 9/11 would still have occurred and much of the antisemitic screed in the letter would still be there.
For me personally (as a secular, non-jewish westerner), I acknowledge the genocide occurring and the evil being done, and I think the sanewashing of the genocide further reinforces the absolute moral deprivation of those persecuting it.
see. i don't even try to talk to people like you, because the bias is so thoroughly obvious that I know I will never have a rational conversation with someone like you.
anyone who think jews simply existing in israel is reason enough for hamas to invade and indescriminately start slaughtering civilians can go eat a bag of dicks.
and did this guy just blame my ancestors for 9/11?!?
Blocked.