this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2025
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[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 48 points 1 day ago (4 children)

I am pretty sure there is some financial fuckery going on with BYD. My parents own two, and they are very nice, but way under priced compared to every other EV manufacturer.

Can't prove anything of course, but there is something odd going on when everyone else is 20-30k more expensive.

Hard to feel sorry for GM though, they suckled at our governments (Australia) teet for decades before giving up and leaving entirely. At least if BYD is being propped up we are at least getting good cheap cars from it.

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 25 points 1 day ago (2 children)

The financial fuckery is that they're very heavily subsidized by the CCP. It's not sustainable.

[–] einkorn@feddit.org 35 points 1 day ago (4 children)

I'd argue it is.

Just look how Amazon got where it is now: Sell way under market price, till local competition closed shop, then squeeze.

[–] frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's unsustainable to keep prices lower than costs. The Amazon example didn't have low prices forever.

[–] einkorn@feddit.org 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yes, I know. That's why BYD is going to then squeeze the customers once they are locked in.

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org -2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Thus, not sustainable, as I said.

[–] Taldan@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

It worked for Wal-Mart

Which isn't really a sustainable business model, but it's quite successful

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 2 points 22 hours ago

It didn't work for Walmart the same way it didn't work for Amazon

[–] Tiger666@lemmy.ca 3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

What is sustainable in today's economy?

Really, what Western corporation actually base their policies on sustainable growth?

Take your time. I'll wait.

...

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 2 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (1 children)

All of them that I know of. Which corporations do you see running unsustainable business models until they fold completely? Take your time, I'll wait.

The point is that they eventually change their tactics. In this case, they'll have to eventually increase their prices.

[–] msage@programming.dev 2 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Even big companies ran gigantic losses for years, just to undercut the competition and emerge as the only winner.

Some do it because they have other cash cows Epic store milking Fortnite), others have VC funding, like Uber.

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 2 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Yes but after they win they have to raise prices...

[–] msage@programming.dev 1 points 1 hour ago

Yes, and so may BYD. I have no idea what are you arguing for.

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I think your muddying sustainable and successful. It definitely can be successful, but its not sustainable.

Its also high risk, especially if you can't crank up the prices enough later

[–] einkorn@feddit.org 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sustainable implies that they can keep doing it forever without changing. Switching later means what they are doing is not sustainable. It might be successful, but its not sustainable.

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There's sustainable practices and sustainable businesses. The latter is what others are arguing. Undercutting competition to take over a market is a sustainable practice IF you can hold out long enough. I'd wager the country of China can hold out longer than General Motors.

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 2 points 21 hours ago

But the business model has to change in order to survive. The company cannot undercut forever, it actually needs to change in order to survive. The business model of today is not sustainable. They may have a large warchest, they may be able to crush GM, but once they do, or the warchest runs out, the business model must change.

If you want to make the argument that their overall plan with the later change is sustainable, thats fine, but this current phase is not sustainable.

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You forgot the part where they raised prices on everything.

[–] Gigasser@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago

It might just be that, since BYD is serving such a large domestic market/population, that allows them to have cheaper cars? Something something, economies of scale. I'm no expert though.

[–] Greyghoster@aussie.zone 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

While they are subsidised, the Chinese are really good at low cost manufacturing. It’s not the cheap labour anymore but factory automation and robotics. They really outclass anyone else.

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

the Chinese are really good at low cost manufacturing

They're not "good" at it, they just have no minimum wage and no semblance of annoying things like worker protections or unions to be concerned with.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 2 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (1 children)

like worker protections or unions

That's just patently false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-China_Federation_of_Trade_Unions

It is the largest trade union in the world with 302 million members in 1,713,000 primary trade union organizations.

[–] Ulrich@feddit.org 4 points 22 hours ago

Like all things in China, this is owned by the government, making it pointless.

[–] Greyghoster@aussie.zone 1 points 2 hours ago

They actually have a problem with workers or the lack of them and they have invested heavily in robotics. They aren’t the China of the 70s and 90s. It’s really something that we need to face up to if we want to compete but our political class isn’t really ready for that sort of reality. Years behind because of smugness.

[–] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Brazil shuts BYD factory site over 'slavery' conditions

From 2016 and still true today:

Chinese Government Subsidies Play Major Part In Electric Car Maker BYD's Rise

Yeah, subsidies and other benefits from governments exist but China is going all in.

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 4 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

My only point of confusion is that a 20k loss on every car is insane. I'm guessing its a bit of BYD is subsidised somewhat, and everyone else is price gouging somewhat. No idea the ratio.

Also odd that other Chinese brands (really only tried MG) dont seem to have the same high quality, high pricing that suggests the same level of crazy subsidies.

Honestly, there is just so much fuckery going I just have no idea what is what.

[–] antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Rivian is losing about $30k per vehicle, but with much lower production numbers.

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 1 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Thats crazy. Are those public numbers from rivian?

[–] antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 15 hours ago

Rivian’s financial statements provide insight into its per-unit losses, though calculating an exact figure requires analyzing multiple variables. The company’s cost of goods sold (COGS), which includes direct production expenses, regularly exceeds revenue, leading to negative gross margins. According to its latest SEC filings, Rivian reported a gross loss per vehicle of approximately $39,000 in 2023, though this figure fluctuates based on production volume and operational efficiencies.

Not exactly a number they put in a press release, but as a publicly traded company it is published quarterly.

[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 2 points 15 hours ago

China subsidises industries it wants to dominate in, allowing them to sell for less than cost. It's why the EU also tariffs Chinese cars.

Also for anything the big 3 make in the US, I believe they use union labor? Not sure if they did for Aussie market cars.