this post was submitted on 02 Jul 2025
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I was talking to one of my friends and he mentioned staying home on July 4, citing how there are a lot of really ugly things going on in the US.

After thinking about this myself, I'm starting to feel the same way. Instead of being proud of the country, I'm feeling like I'm just another wallet that companies and the government are trying to suck all the money out of.

The cost of living is going up, the housing market is a nightmare, I don't feel very confident in our government at all, the job market is a nightmare...

I think I'll be staying home this year too... anyone else?

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[–] MudMan@fedia.io 109 points 22 hours ago (8 children)

Not being American I always found the whole thing very creepy. Like, North Korean military parade-creepy.

For the record, we don't have anything like that where I'm from, but the closest things we do have are also very creepy. Patriotism in general is extremely not cool, honestly.

[–] PunnyName@lemmy.world 75 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I screencapped this many moons ago on Reddit, I feel that it's apropos

collapsed inline media

[–] pulsewidth@lemmy.world 5 points 4 hours ago

The USA started cracking at the foundations when McCarthyism began, demonizing an ideology that was ultimately about sharing resources. You can draw a straight line between the Red Scare and the anti-socialism proudly shouted by modern Republicans and the MAGA movement today.

For anyone who identifies as conservative, this rabid vilification of socialism has rotted away at even the idea that the government should exist to service the people, let alone advocating for it. So instead they advocate for tearing it all apart and hold firm to the 'rugged individialism', "the Free Market © will provide" nonsense that has never worked as far back in history as we can peer.

Its so toxic, and it serves only the most wealthy. It's gone so far and for so long now that I don't see the lessons being learnt and course correcting with words alone.

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 34 points 22 hours ago

It's rooted in all that "American Exceptionalism" propaganda crap, for sure.

[–] moonlight@fedia.io 27 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

As an American I never really liked the holiday, (I agree patriotism sucks) but I wouldn't say it's that it really feels creepy other than the few people who really go over the top with it. Most people just use it as an excuse to barbeque and watch / light off fireworks (which I'm just personally not into)

Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn't until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.

[–] yarr@feddit.nl 5 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.

America and North Korea aren't alone in some kind of pledge for the country, are we? I have a memory of Chinese students doing the same type of thing, but I'm not entirely sure.

[–] moonlight@fedia.io 12 points 17 hours ago

From a quick search it looks like India, Nigeria, Singapore, and the Philippines do as well.

Other countries may have pledges of some sort for special occasions or for new citizens. But having a flag in every classroom that children chant to each morning is not normal.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 4 points 15 hours ago

Over here the only similar events I can think of are related to joining the military and taking elected office. And there was significant legal arguing about the last one, to the point where opt-outs and strict limitations were added.

[–] Jmsnwbrd@lemmy.world 2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Look up why the pledge was incorporated in the first place. It was a scheme to sell small American flags and the pledge was made up to go with the flags. Once it was implemented in the classroom - profits were staggering. There was a SCOTUS ruling years ago that the pledge does NOT have to be done in the classroom, but most still do. I do not partake in my classroom and do not tell kids that have to. I do however tell the kids to be respectfully quiet while others do (if they wish).

[–] amelia@feddit.org 0 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

I appreciate that you don't tell kids that they have to participate, but honestly, even telling the others to be "respectfully quiet" seems a bit odd to me.

A democratic state is something you pledge allegiance to by actively participating, by making use of your democratic rights and by putting energy into building and shaping the system we all live in. That's what democracy is meant to be, a system of all people working together and valuing the needs and opinions of others, working out the best solutions for everyone through discourse. It's not a religion or a god that you pray to in silence, that's a bit absurd, isn't it?

[–] treadful@lemmy.zip 11 points 20 hours ago (3 children)

Independence day celebrations are not unique to America.

[–] thefluffiest@feddit.nl 5 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

In fact, the best ones are about independence from the US

[–] jaybone@lemmy.zip 3 points 18 hours ago (1 children)
[–] thefluffiest@feddit.nl 0 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Hmm let me see. True former colonies include Cuba, the Philippines and Liberia. The Panama Canal Zone. Hawaii was unceremoniously annexed, as were Guam and Puerto Rico. And a host of smaller islands.

In a broader sense, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq are also very happy they’re once again independent from the US.

In an even broader sense, most US allies are working for independence from the unreliable US as we speak.

[–] jaybone@lemmy.zip 3 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I was asking which countries have independence days that celebrate independence from the US.

The Philippines celebrates their independence from Spain.

Vietnam celebrates their independence from France.

I won’t bother going on, but nice try though.

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

Hey you weren't supposed to know that!

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 0 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

We have one of those, and it'd be creepy even if historically it wasn't debatable that the event itself was for the better.

[–] treadful@lemmy.zip 2 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

Fair enough, I just disagree. Gaining independence seems to me like a positive thing worth celebrating. I'm happy whenever I see an ex-colony celebrating their day.

Not saying we Americans don't take it a little far, but hey, it's the one day where you can be patriotic without that creepy vibe.

[–] davidagain@lemmy.world 1 points 9 hours ago

America fought for independence from Britain because the wealth of the nation was being sucked away and spent for the whims of a handful of wealthy people, and because the people were powerless to chose who the government was. If you factor in the insane number of insanely Gerrymandered districts and significant quantities of votes going through Musk's servers with no external scrutiny, a broken electoral college and a supreme court intent on deleting the constitution starting with section 3 of the 14th amendment (and now moving on to the rest of it), removing religious freedom, I see everything that the founding fathers fought for and everything that the civil war was fought for being stamped on by one deluded racist moron and his crazy sycophants and enablers. It was never really freedom from slavery anyway when you have such vast numbers of black men working for no wage in profiteering private prisons for decades just for smoking some pot or stealing some groceries while rich men who do drugs or steal tens of thousands get a slap on the wrist.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io -1 points 15 hours ago

Yeah, well, that depends on who gained independence from whom and whether you think you're independent now. Also on whether you'd be indepedendent from any guys who'd like to be independent from the now guys if they were to be independent.

See, political independence for a group requires that you align with the idea the group has of itself. I don't know that I have that overlap with any particular political delineation, so I may need an organization a touch more nuanced than an independent, sovereign nation-state.

Also, gonna need some citation on the lack of creepy vibe, as mentioned above.

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world -1 points 19 hours ago

How many are on July 4?

[–] obinice@lemmy.world 5 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Patriotism can be cool, there are (I hope) many things about your nation, it's achievements and communities that you might be proud of.

Nationalism however, not so much. They're closely related (and bad people will try to sneak Nationalism under the radar as Patriotism) but are very different things.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 15 hours ago

I don't know that I agree with this.

Perhaps coming from a place where the notion of "country" and "nation" don't overlap one to one makes it easier to see. I wouldn't really be able to tell you what "my nation" even is, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I respect and take pride in culture in all its diversity and complexity, in democracy and in the general sense of human decency. Screw all the so-called nations trying to get me to vouch for them as a political unit, though. Political organization is for buiding roads and hospitals, not for pride.

[–] t_berium@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago

Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people's accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.

[–] yarr@feddit.nl 2 points 18 hours ago

I don't know, it's kind of like how people like to support their local football team. I think tribalism is somewhat ingrained in our brains. I can't say it's entirely logical, but it seems kind of baked-in to people at some level, like a leftover from pre-history.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Patriotism is very cool. Nationalism isn't, which has mostly subverted the term patriot. A patriot stands up when their nation is doing something wrong. They don't blindly believe they're the best, they recognize that there's things they can improve. They fight to make their country better, not to make others worse.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 28 minutes ago

That'd be great if it didn't disagree with all available evidence. For all of history patriots have been either cannon fodder or abusive tyrants. On a long enough trajectory, almost inevitably nationalists and eventually imperialists.

One could argue that, much like some flavors of political utopia, internationalism has the advantage of never having been implemented in any practical sense, so they have less of a challenge proving their positive impact, but I'll take it anyway.

Regardless, I find that "making their country better" should be a distant second to "making the world better", and perhaps a close third behind "making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better".

Look, I am not a globalist anarchist. I believe in well structured, effective democratic governments. Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don't have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It's all administrative stuff as far as I'm concerned.