Ask Lemmy

I just learned the other day that in English "you" is the old formal.

Here in Pennsylvania, we know that Quakers used thee and thou far longer than anyone else. Turns out, that was a protest movement. You and yours were used for nobility and royalty, the piece I was reading said the "royal we" is a leftover from this setup.

As a protest against classism and politics, Quakers refused to use you and yours at all and used thee and thou for everyone regardless of status. Instead, common usage English went the other way and adopted you and yours for everyone.

My mother met old Quaker ladies in the 1950s who still used thee and thou in common conversation.

In French/France I use the formal vous when talking to strangers or customers. Here people generally switch pretty quickly to the informal tu when they get to know each other (at my first day at work with my colleagues and boss). But I'm quite an oddball since I use the formal address even for kids, which no one does. Also my neighbor was a bit annoyed at me for continuing to say vous to her after having met her one month ago. It can make people feel old.

I live in Japan, and of course there are formal ways to say everything, but in formal and polite situations, people actually try to avoid saying 'you' (anata, 貴方) as much as possible. Because even that can feel too personal. I only see it in writing that addresses the reader indirectly, like in surveys.

If you do address or refer to them, you typically use their title/position (e.g., 'sensei' for doctors and teachers, 'Mr. President'), or name and appropriate honorific (e.g., Tanaka-san).

P.S., a lot of what might've been archaically formal and polite ways to say 'you' have become ironically rude and/or condescending. Like, 'KISAMA!' (貴様), kimi (君) (sovereign/lord), onushi (お主) (lord).

Any adults I don't know, older adults in my family including my friends' parents (many don't, I'm just a bit old fashioned, lol) and employees at work? Goes for both French and Spanish. 👍

I speak Italian, German, and French. The rules for when to use the formal address are complex, differ from language to language, and are changing every day.

The formal address is largely deferential. You invoke it both to imply status and emotional/social distance. That's the common thread I noticed in these three languages. Italians being more informal, you end up using the informal address with a lot more people; German society is more formal and you keep your distance even from people (like coworkers) that you have known for a long time.

But I would say that in all three of these languages, formality is becoming more and more infrequent. I think this is illustrated very well by the way media and web sites address users and visitors, which is going quickly from the formal form to the informal.

There seems to be also an influence from English, which has no formal address. I notice that in dubbed media, like movies and TV shows, that frequently don't really know what to do with the different forms available in the context of source material that doesn't have it. Sometimes it's amusing, like the scene where Captain America (I think) used the informal address to his superiors, which would have been absolutely insulting for a military officer, akin to calling them "bro" in English.

I've literally never heard "您" in my entire life, except for like Chinese TV Drama or in a Chinese-Language class where the word is being taught.

That said, I'm not ever near politicians or bussiness people, just another "filthy peasant".

Used in Mandarin speaking places. You is "你" ni 3rd tone, You (Formal) is "您" nin 2nd tone(?), the 您 character even has the 心 part to show how much "heart" you meant when you use that pronoun lol, its literlly 你 (you) + 心 (heart).

I don't think Cantonese even has a formal "you", everything is so colloquial and informal.

Traditional spanish has a formal you (usted/ustedes), however Argentinian Spanish, which is the version that I'm most familiar with mostly uses vos instead of usted and tu, and doesn't typically differentiate between formal and informal

Dutch is now my main language. I rarely, almost never, use the formal "U" or "Uw". It's an archaic thing.

I notice it's still in use in government communication. I also notice it in (older) literature.

In Amharic, spoken in Ethiopia, you use the the formal you in formal settings (mostly work or legal related matters) or when speaking to an elderly person. The informal you has variations for women and men but the formal you is gender neutral.

In Portuguese we use the formal "você" in a similar way to the French "vous"- for people you just met, people who are older, customers, etc. In some families (usually very traditional or conservative families) children will address parents and other elders by "você". Then there's another level where you address someone by their name or their title, usually reserved for people of a "higher rank" or a very formal setting, like "O senhor/a senhora conhece o Lemmy?", or "O João gosta de memes?"

I could answer my own question, actually!

For reference, I'm in western austria, speaking German. The class I'm taking is A2 French.

My region is pretty different from most of the German speaking 'world'. We use the formal you much less. The informal one is more or less th default, except:

You're in secondary school. The teachers will use the informal one for students and the students have to use the formal one for most teachers. In high school, students can technically request that teachers use the formal you for them, but nobody does. I teach night school, and nobody used the formal you. Most of my students are very roughly around my age.

You're seeing a doctor you don't repeatedly go to, e.g. at the hospital. We use informal you for the specialists and GPs we see regularly, unless they're ~60+.

You're a bachelor's student. Formal you for both students and professors. Unless the teacher is a masters or PhD student, then informal you both ways. Masters and PhD students tend to use informal you with professors and vice versa, but some professors will be the exception and there will be formal you both ways.

Court. Formal you, except between a lawyer and their client.

Some stuffy, old fashioned workplaces use formal you, but only between boss and employees, very very rarely between employees. If it's some higher level management person you don't usually work with, it's more likely you'll use formal you both ways.

Super specific, but 80+ year old people who've never lived outside a city will want kids to use formal you for them, but they'll use the informal one for the kids.

German tourists. We're aware that informal you is more common in Germany, and try to me courteous. Except those of us who hate tourists, lol.

That's all the exceptions I can think of! For everyone else, including strangers (e.g. when asking for directions, cashiers, waiters, etc.) we use the informal one!

Tagalog. I lived with my ex-wife and her family for years. The more people in the house, the happier Mom was. They all spoke Tagalog. One day I heard my brother-in-law speaking to someone on the phone and it sounded much different. I asked him why and the call and he said he was speaking formally.

Hopefully someone can explain better.

In Mexican Spanish, you would default to formal 'you' in most public interactions (although not all people do this). You would also use formal language when talking to a teacher or an authority.

• Formal 'you' (singular): usted
• Formal and informal 'you' (plural): ustedes
• Informal 'you' (singular): tú

Note that the informal and formal 'you' in plural are the same.

Fun fact: formal language in Spanish is more than just formal 'you'.

E.g., if you're working at a fancy shop and wanted to ask a customer "how may I help you?", you would say "¿en qué le puedo ayudar?" (formal) instead of "¿en qué te puedo ayudar?" (informal). This question does not have 'you' in Spanish.

Never. Norwegian, by the way.

Similar to German, the plural can be used as a formal version of singular (Du = Du, Sie = De).

But I've never used it outside of cases such as acting obnoxiously formal with friends. And I don't think anyone else does either. Hundred years ago, maybe. Not today.

Russian here.

I use the formal "You" when talking to adults I don't know well and in official conversations. Also, with superiors.

I use the informal "you" with friends and family, and with colleagues I know well. Informal "you" also communicates warmth, safety, a call to action, or authority, which is why it may be used when addressing children (particularly preteens), people in danger, or someone else you need to either influence or make feel safe, or both.

Of course there are millions of exceptions, and everyone keeps it slightly different. For this reason, it is common for people to have hard time figuring whether to address certain people by formal or informal "you". Mistakenly using the formal option can be read as creating more distance, the informal - as invading the personal space. It's an issue in spoken conversations, too, as these forms are actually two different words that are audibly different.

Back when I was at uni I had a fellow student from England who complained about the formal you in German. It took him to start learning Japanese to realize it's really not that bad. In German it used to be that you say Sie to any adult-looking person until you both agreed to use du. At work this is a lot more relaxed now with entire companies stating everybody used du. Makes it much easier and nicer, in my opinion.

Funny thing is, in Dutch, I feel it is way more common that people correct you for using a formal form than the other way around.

For Spanish, I pretty much only use it with customers at work, and nice, elderly people. I guess I would use it if I were in a court for something in Spanish, but otherwise, I don't really use it at all.

Czech (and Slovak, mostly also Polish) use formal/informal you similar to German or French. (At least from my limited understanding of those.)

Formal: High schools, universities, work environment, courts, etc. You also use it when you're speaking with older people or when you want to show respect to person you're talking to.

Informal: Everywhere else. It is also used when you want to indirectly insult person where formal should be used.

Life hack: You can use informal absolutely everywhere when you're old (even when it'd be very disrespectful otherwise) and nobody gives a shit.

Greek: formal you is usually used with older people (but not family), teachers when you are a student or higher ups in general. Wherever I've worked we used the informal form but I don't know how common this is. Also retail workers typically use the formal form with customers so I do the same with them but many people do not. It seems to be slowly going away as a feature.

Spanish: I'd use the formal a bit less than in greek but it depends on location. In Spain it seems pretty rare but some central and south American countries use it much more.

In Finnish, we have a formal 'you', but it's kind of archaic and I there aren't really any situations where it should be used. In general, you should avoid formal speech. It's rarely used and sticks out, so instead of being polite it might even make you sound sarcastic.

Coming from that culture, German 'sie' felt awkward at first. It feels pointless, but at the same time quirks like this also make cultures more interesting. I remember this meme video where a guy insults a cop while addressing him with 'du', but as the cop turns towards him, he quickly corrects it with 'sie', making the insult 100 times better. That just wouldn't work here.

In English, I use it all the time because 'thou' has been dropped.

In Spain it is normally used with elderly people (less and less, people get offended and think that "you call them old" or something like that when you use it) and in very formal situations, especially at work.

I don't think I've ever seen a comprehensive explanation when to use "Sie" over "du" in German. Very, VERY basically it's this: if you're close to the other person, it's "du", otherwise "Sie". And then there's a gazillion constellations where it's not that easy and it seems learners keep finding more cases where what they learnt isn't applicable. Most of these are intuitive to native German speakers, some are difficult to decide even for us.

Not that I think German is special in this. The correct way to address someone is less about language rules that you can memorise, more something you learn to intuit by getting to know the intricacies of the culture and its social mores.

Regarding your language teacher: what are those two languages? They may have different rules on how a teacher/student relationship works.

In ಕನ್ನಡ (Kannada): ನೀನು (neenu) is the informal you and ನೀವು (neevu) is the formal you.

Pretty much all verbs can be conjugated into formal and informal variants with varying levels of respect indicated. And a ton of words have spoken and written variants - but let's not get into that now.

Ex for verbs:

• "go"

  • ಹೋಗಿ: hogi, gender neutral formal
  • ಹೋಗು: hogu, gender neutral informal
  • ಹೋಗೋ: hogo, male informal less respectful
  • ಹೋಗೋಲೋ: hogolo, male disrespectful , almost like "fuck off dude"

• "stand up" is ನಿಂತುಕೊ (ninthuko, informal) or ನಿಂತುಕೊಳ್ಳಿ (ninthukolli, formal) etc.

Where I'm from, we use the formal variants when talking to pretty much anyone. The informal version is mostly used if you're talking to friends, toddlers, or cousins (of your own age). The other use case for the informal versions is if you want to insult someone without swearing at them or using the completely disrespectful variants.

Rules change from one city to the next though, and there are regions where using the informal variants is the norm. This leads to some extremely confusing situations - the first time my girl friend met my parents, she addressed them using the informal you and they were shocked (till I jumped in and clarified) as they thought she was dissing them, but it's just how people spoke in the city where she grew up. 🤷‍♂️

Formal you where I live is generally used for anyone older that you don’t know closely, in professional settings, or toward someone who has authority over you. Informal you is used for friends, close family, and some people around your age or younger.

I speak Spanish, and use the formal pronoun when in any formal situation, eg. addressing a stranger.

Slovenian uses the formal one for adults you are not personally connected to. So like strangers or people in positions that demand somw respect. Definitely used for people like teachers, professors, your SO's parents...

There is also a half formal way of addressing people that I kinda hate and is also completely grammatically incorrect and I don't really know how to explain the way it works. It can only be used in past and future tense (because the present does not have a modifier for the verb). So the first part of the verb is taken from the formal (plural) form of the verb and the second part is taken from the informal (singular) form.