this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2025

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681

It Took Many Years And Billions Of Dollars, But Microsoft Finally Invented A Calculator That Is Wrong Sometimes (defector.com)

submitted 3 weeks ago by tux0r@feddit.org to c/technology@lemmy.world

95 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Money quote:

Excel requires some skill to use (to the point where high-level Excel is a competitive sport), and AI is mostly an exercise in deskilling its users and humanity at large.

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[–] jubilationtcornpone@sh.itjust.works 132 points 3 weeks ago (31 children)

There are things that could be done to improve Excel. For instance, fully integrate python and allow it to be used to create custom functions. Then, maybe one day, VBA can ride off into the sunset where it belongs.

Adding Copilot to Excel is not an improvement because Copilot and all other LLM based platforms frequently barfs out totally incorrect information about how to do something in Excel.

"You do that using formula."

No, I can't, you worthless pile of shit because THAT FORMULA DOESNT EXIST.

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 62 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

Integrated python scripts in excel sounds like a malware developers dream.

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 33 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

And a nightmare for an application developer told to make some app with a spreadsheet for a database scale

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 46 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Could result in some very cursed codebases.

"We dont use git, we just update the excel spreadsheet"

[–] Gork@sopuli.xyz 31 points 3 weeks ago

I've worked at places where they did that anyway lol

[–] frongt@lemmy.zip 18 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

That's just called Access

[–] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Is that creepy thing still alive?

[–] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

It can't be ... but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. I remember making fun of Access on StackOverflow circa 2008 and running afoul of some dude there who was like the last living Access consultant on Earth. I've never encountered defensive rage like that before or since.

Fun Access fact, the Diebold-manufactured voting machines that featured prominently in the 2000 presidential election cycle used an Access database as their underlying data storage mechanism. Access DBs did incorporate an audit table - which was manually-editable.

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[–] turkalino@lemmy.yachts 16 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Surely there’s some sort of sandboxing that could be done? Like start by disallowing sys calls entirely

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 8 points 3 weeks ago

Definitely, but sandboxes can be escaped, and you can't protect everything via sandbox. Apparently its all cloud anyway, but if it were local and sandboxed, there are still exploits like rowhammer and spectre that may cause further risks.

Its taken years to get browser sandboxes to where they are, and even they get broken every so often.

[–] rollerbang@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I mean... Yeah, but the same can be said for VB?

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

Especially since VBA can make calls to the Windows API directly and through that avenue do all kinds of funky things to your system.

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[–] jubilationtcornpone@sh.itjust.works 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Fair point. Of course that's already a problem with Excel. It would probably have to be disabled by default just like VBA macros.

[–] elvith@feddit.org 8 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

They foresaw that. That's because python on Excel doesn't run locally, but in the cloud and then returns the result to you: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/introduction-to-python-in-excel-55643c2e-ff56-4168-b1ce-9428c8308545

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Still sounds like you'd be shipping your data to the cloud, where it can be exfilled from there.

Would potentially be a great phishing tool, just need to trick someone into putting sensitive data into a precooked excel file, and it gets exfilled.

[–] elvith@feddit.org 4 points 3 weeks ago

Currently only for business customers which probably use OneDrive or SharePoint anyways, so it's not that they need that to exfiltrate data. But for a phishing/hacking attempt? There are probably some nice possibilities.

[–] magikmw@piefed.social 4 points 3 weeks ago

That's even worse!

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[–] Honytawk@feddit.nl 63 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

Why would anyone use an LLM as calculator?

That just doesn't make sense.

It is like using a calculator as typewriter because it can spell 80085.

[–] Rambomst@lemmy.world 39 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

collapsed inline media

So what you are saying is, my car is a typewriter?

[–] GreenShimada@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Microsoft might agree with this.

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[–] echodot@feddit.uk 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I did this with my car when I got to that point and sent it to my girlfriend, but I photoshopped it so it said I was going over 100. Anyway I thought it was funny.

[–] Rambomst@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I was in the car with my missus, every 2 seconds she was making sure I hadn't missed the big moment. She's a good egg.

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[–] tux0r@feddit.org 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Heh heh 80085

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 6 points 3 weeks ago

High brow humour indeed

[–] jim3692@discuss.online 4 points 3 weeks ago

To waste electric energy. All those power plants produce immense amounts of energy that needs to be consumed. If we didn't have LLMs, the pollution of those plants would be for nothing. At least now, there is an attempt to put it in good use.

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 29 points 3 weeks ago

There's an old story about the lead developer at Texas Instruments saying "I want a computer that fits in my pocket". And then his staff dutifully measured the pocket to spec before proceeding to perform a feat of miniaturization that would revolutionize the modern world.

I'm trying to imagine one of the techies, from way out in the back, saying "Does it have to get the right answer?" Then getting fired, walking off the job, and walking into Microsoft with 10x the salary the next day.

[–] jaemo@sh.itjust.works 16 points 3 weeks ago

Our very own economic Butlerian jihad.

[–] Limonene@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago

Give Microsoft some credit! Excel has been able to come up with wrong answers for decades. For example, reporting 1900 as a leap year.

[–] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Are you kidding? Microsoft has always been shit at math. According to Microsoft Excel, 2 + 2 = 12:04 AM Jan 1, 1900.

[–] BreadstickNinja@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

Integers are days in Excel, no? So I think 2+2= 12:00 AM Jan 5, 1900.

[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Wrong, they already had that with Excel. There were a bunch of functions that delivered wrong returns for years, and none of the users (mostly economists) had noticed.

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 7 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

OK, I'm not really mad at this. I already used Copilot to design a table for me in Excel and it worked really well. It did everything for me, and I just had to copy-paste the formulas into their appropriate spots. If it's built-in, possibly will work better.

Not everybody needs to be an Excel expert, after all. Having that functionality might be actually beneficial.

[–] Lightfire228@pawb.social 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

How do you know those formulas are correct?

[–] percent@infosec.pub 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

By verifying that they're correct...? 🤔

[–] theparadox@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (6 children)

I think the concern is that you can come up with a number of formulas that will get correct answers for some combinations of values and not others.

If you do not understand the logic of the formula, and what each function does, how do you verify they are correct and will always give you the results you think they will? Double check every result in its entirety?

[–] Lightfire228@pawb.social 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

That's my thinking

If you know what you're doing, it's significantly easier to do it yourself

You at least have some reassurance it's correct (or at least thought through)

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[–] nutsack@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

yes okay dad

[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Any time, nutsack.

[–] altphoto@lemmy.today 5 points 3 weeks ago

I'm a dad and I approve this message.

[–] RickyRigatoni@retrolemmy.com 3 points 3 weeks ago

Intel already did that in the 90's with the FDIV bug.

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