this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2025
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[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 37 points 1 day ago (51 children)

So when the communist party came into power after the Bolshevik revolution, Wilson went to the League of Nations to negotiate a common embargo of the Soviet project, essentially sanctioning Russia the way we might sanction a nation for humanitarian wrongdoing.

This is to say Wilson was afraid of it actually working, which would jeopardize the industrial moguls who were already running the US.

This is also to say, the Soviet Union was doing a communism in hostile circumstances, much the way European monarchs pressured France to raise a new king after the revolution (leading to Napoleon's rise to power, the Levée en masse (general conscription) and the War of the First Coalition (or as is modernly known, Napoleon Kicks European Butt For A While ).

Historians can't really say, but the fact the red scare started with Wilson (and not after WWII) might have influenced events, including the corruption of the party and the rise of Stalin as an autocrat.

Also according to Prof. Larry Lessig, Boss Tweed in the 1850s worked to make sure the ownership class called all the shots in the United States, eventually driving us to Hoover and the Great Depression. FDR's New Deal (very much resented by the industrialists) was a last chance for Capitalism, which then got a boost because WWII commanded high levels of production and distracted us with a foreign enemy. Then the cold war.

So communism was really unlucky and didn't get a fair shake in the Soviet Union, and US free market capitalism got especially lucky in the 20th century, and we don't really know if either one can be held together for more than a century or two. EU capitalism is wavering, thanks to pressure from the far right, and neoliberalism failing to serve the public.

In the meantime, check out what's going on in Cuba, which isn't perfect, but is interesting.

[–] FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

FYI, in the fifties the CIA wrote a memo where they stated that claims that Stalin was autocratic were largely exaggerated and the USSR largely had collective leadership.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf

[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 day ago (2 children)

On one hand, i don't trust the cia on anything. I dont even trust them to know what those words mean.

On the other; this us hilarious.

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[–] miss_demeanour@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 2 days ago
[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 23 points 2 days ago (7 children)

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets. I wish everybody would focus on those things falling down and needing to be fixed instead of pretending we’re going to throw the whole system out tomorrow.

[–] Evkob@lemmy.ca 23 points 1 day ago (5 children)

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets.

Sure, it's just too bad it's also a system in which the most powerful are incentivized to cut regulations and destroy social safety nets.

This utopic version of capitalism sounds really nice, but it's fully incompatible with the actual reality of capitalism.

[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 12 points 1 day ago (4 children)

This utopic version of capitalism sounds really nice, but it’s fully incompatible with the actual reality of capitalism.

All it takes for capitalism to work flawlessly is... checks notes... a fundamental change in human nature, where we no longer feel greed.

EZPZ. Best system ever designed!

(don't tell anyone that this would equally make communism work)

[–] FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If a socio-economic system incentives greed to the point where a person who is not greedy is literally unable to succeed, can you really say that greed is human nature?

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[–] theparadox@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (7 children)

It’s the best system when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets.

Both regulation and social safety nets run counter to the concept of a free market and a free market is central to the definition of Capitalism.

That's like saying "The best form of travel is unrestrained forward acceleration" with the caveat that it must be combined with the ability to break and steer.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

No, it’s like saying that the best form of transportation is some form of forward locomotive force kept in check by brakes and steering. Like, you know actual cars.

Basically you’re looking at a Toyota Corolla and saying “What? Some of its parts move it forward, and some of its parts stop it from moving? That’s a total contradiction! It’s central to the definition of a car that it move forward!”

Yes regulation and social safety nets run counter, that’s the point.

There’s no one concept which makes for a good system in a totally undiluted form. Pure centralized economy: disaster. Pure capitalism, disaster.

Capitalism tempered by regulation and socialism: a balance of economic dynamism and humanist restraint.

The core of your argument seems to be that the only form of capitalism is unrestrained capitalism and we just don’t agree on those semantics. I believe a free market system can be governed and taxed to support social welfare. You believe that capitalism can only be unrestrained. Well, my version of reality is everywhere we look: both Europe and the US are examples of free market economies with some safety net and regulation attached. Europe is stronger on the latter two but the US is hardly at zero.

[–] theparadox@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

You believe that capitalism can only be unrestrained.

I believe that the modern proponents of capitalism are fighting tooth and nail against any kind of restraint and that they are winning. I believe that the inherent premise of capitalism - that private ownership of capital and self interest will lead to market forces creating competition and the optimisation of the economy - are naive and false.

Yes, Europe has caged the leopard of capitalism with regulation and social welfare programs. It's just silly to me that so many sing the praises of a leopard when it must be kept caged at all times and watched constantly. Still in this form, it occasionally manages to devour a face or two before it's shoved back in its cage and the bars are repaired. Orbit gets out and rampages for a while, like is happening in the US. Clearly, powering your economy via caged leopard only way to do things.

There’s no one concept which makes for a good system in a totally undiluted form. Pure centralized economy: disaster. Pure capitalism, disaster.

If you think socialism necessarily means a centrally planned economy then you understand socialist movements about as well as you understand the superiority of capitalism.

It's honestly just a flipping of the premises of capitalism. That public ownership of capital and a focus on collective welfare and democracy rather than self interest is a better central pillar for an economy. The premise is that private ownership of capital driven by self interest will always gain a disproportionate amount of power and work against the public good.

What's really frustrating is that the disproportionate power granted to capitalists under capitalism has allowed them to undermined any attempts to try anything else. Every single time any government has turned to socialist values, whether by coup or peaceful elections, capitalists have used every power at their disposal to sabotage it. It reminds me of places like Haiti - the slaves overthrew their masters and the world made their lives hell for it... for generations.

If the capitalists don't manage to outright overthrow the government of the socialist state, the capitalists band together against it to such an extent that the socialist state often turns to authoritarian tactics to try and keep it's ideals. I'm not here to defend those tactics, just lament that the capitalist forces are so capable of preventing any real experimentation with socialism. It's a plague to them because it threatens their power. Seriously - look up any socialist state and I'm positive you'll find capitalist powers trying to overthrow or sabotage them.

Yes, there are also self proclaimed communist/socialist states that are closer to dictatorships. The Nazis also claimed to be socialists in order to get the support of the people. Clearly an unfortunate circumstance that muddies the water. No true Scotsman and all that.

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[–] droans@midwest.social 10 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, was pretty clear that a free market still needs protection.

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation...

Every species of animals naturally multiplies in proportion to the means of their subsistence, and no species can ever multiply beyond it. But in civilised society it is only among the inferior ranks of people that the scantiness of subsistence can set limits to the further multiplication of the human species; and it can do so in no other way than by destroying a great part of the children which their fruitful marriages produce.

The liberal reward of labour, by enabling them to provide better for their children, and consequently to bring up a greater number, naturally tends to widen and extend those limits. It deserves to be remarked, too, that it necessarily does this as nearly as possible in the proportion which the demand for labour requires. If this demand is continually increasing, the reward of labour must necessarily encourage in such a manner the marriage and multiplication of labourers, as may enable them to supply that continually increasing demand by a continually increasing population.

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[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Uh, why? What's actually good about it? Like, what dies it do well?

[–] some_kind_of_guy@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's an incredible system for moving all the money to the top 0.001%

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[–] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

The strongest safety net would be to do away with capitalism and move to socialism. Which is why the U.S. diplomatically isolates, trade embargos, or just fucking assassinates countries/leaders that try to start socialism.

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[–] jimjam5@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

when combined with strong regulation and good social safety nets

🤣 I’m not disagreeing with the sentiment but to think we’ll see those anytime soon is a bit of a sad joke. I think too many people in power have made too much money for anything but a sundering to change their minds and allow themselves to be regulated and work for the good of all, instead of themselves.

In a slightly different vein of thought, I think there is truth to the sentiment that fascists don’t cede power willingly. I get that we should focus on things we can change that aren’t unimportant, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a fascist government being voted out.

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[–] SpikesOtherDog@ani.social 13 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Was the .com crash bad for average people? I was not yet financially responsible for myself then.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago

I was average people and watched a lot of layoffs happen over it.

[–] BossDj@piefed.social 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It didn't feel that way, not like 2006 felt. I think the crash got quickly overshadowed by 9/11. I also believe that the bubble itself was actually managed better, instead of becoming instant tax cuts and handouts like bubbles under Republicans, so the fallout didn't feel so bad.

[–] PalmTreeIsBestTree@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The worst thing that happened during it was the Enron scandal, a bunch of startup website companies failed, and the ones that didn’t are evil mega corps now.

[–] ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Being close to tech, it was a hard time with friends losing their jobs.

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[–] Univ3rse@lemmynsfw.com 13 points 2 days ago (2 children)

It's just a little austerity for the poors, bro, relax.

[–] JustJack23@slrpnk.net 6 points 2 days ago

You are not like them poors bro, you will be a billionaire any day now! You don't wanna pay taxes on those billions right?

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[–] return2ozma@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Why It's So Hard To Imagine Life After Capitalism

https://youtu.be/PaASqPnpq5Y

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[–] leftzero@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

best

*Least worst so far, maybe, if we're being generous (which tends to be frowned upon or downright illegal under capitalism, so better let's not).

[–] Rooskie91@discuss.online 8 points 20 hours ago

It's not the best system, it's the most addictive.

[–] Nanook@lemmy.zip 7 points 2 days ago

F1 memes crossover plz

[–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

We're not in the crash yet. We've been very close a few times, but they keep reviving the dying horse while they beat it.

It helps when you have a fiat currency that the world is tied to. Won't last forever.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago

I agree with this. It's gotten bad, like, great depression bad, at times, but it never lasted. There has so far been bounce backs in a relatively reasonable timeframe.

When it crashes, you'll know.

[–] MiddleAgesModem@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago (7 children)
[–] ghen@sh.itjust.works 8 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

Techno fascism? No wait that's what we're turning into

[–] MrMcGasion@lemmy.world 7 points 19 hours ago

At the very least heavy regulation to prevent unfair practices. Humans will pretty much always optimize the fun out of everything.

Take competitive video games for example, where once something becomes the meta, it's used and abused until it gets nerfed. But people still play hundreds of games with whatever the most optimal meta is, even if it takes the fun and variety out of the game and makes it boring.

Pretty much every economic system ends up the same way, people figure out the most optimal ways to exploit whatever the system is, take the fun and fairness out of it, and ruin it for anyone who doesn't want to play by the meta. In an ideal system, there's strong regulatory systems in place (for example the FTC and the CFPB) that work to balance things and make sure the system works for everyone. But the people who like to optimize the fun out of things have decided they'd like the regulators out of the way so they can go crazy with their exploitation.

[–] whoisearth@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 day ago (4 children)
[–] MiddleAgesModem@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not being ironic. No one ever answers this question.

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[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 4 points 20 hours ago

Any where such stupidly high wealth inequality cannot happen, or at least that doesn't put "the economy" as the most important thing in the universe, environment, communities and individuals be damned

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[–] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Advocates of capitalism 50 years ago: you dont understand! Caputalism is good bevause people arent, and capitalism harnesses our vices to make us productive! It turns our vices into virtues!

Advocates of capitalism today: no we dont need to get rid of it, we just need to fix it and add virtue and decency! Oh shit, i need to go out today, where's my gas mask and iodine?

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[–] Gigdragon@lemmy.world 5 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Capitalism fails every 4-7 years.

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