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Giving up control bit by bit (sub.wetshaving.social)

submitted 1 week ago by weird@sub.wetshaving.social to c/memes@lemmy.world

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[–] AstralPath@lemmy.ca 69 points 1 week ago (8 children)

I really do wish that more packages on Linux had installation paths clearly noted in a readme.

I've been using Linux daily for over a year now and I still have a hard time tracking down config files and install paths. Its just not one of those tasks I do regularly so I always forget best practices when trying to find stuff. The CLI always gives me the best results but getting the commands right can be tedious.

I've started saving useful commands in a note on my desktop.

[–] jwmgregory@lemmy.dbzer0.com 40 points 1 week ago

i just give up after a couple of minutes if it isn’t somewhere obvious and then search my whole system with grep lmao.

how wonderful to live in a world where compute is so cheap.

[–] ms_lane@lemmy.world 23 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Which readme?

The one on the github that has out of date instructions and tells you to check the discord?

The 6 year out-of-date one on your distro's wiki?

or The gnu-info/manpage that is only for the original upstream and doesn't tell you where all the files have been moved or that half of the software isn't actually installed since it was split out into extra packages for justdebianthings

[–] decipher_jeanne@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 week ago

To be honest, sounds like you aren't using arch btw. Jk I have the same issues on arch

[–] Tetsuo@jlai.lu -3 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Do I really need to remind this is free software made by benevolent developers? I get it it's infuriating but it's still in some way a gift you were given and seem unhappy with.

[–] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

If you give me a 1000 piece puzzle for free, but without the instructions or a box picture to go off of, you've done a nice thing by gifting me something but have also failed miserably as I'll never fuckin solve that puzzle

[–] Tetsuo@jlai.lu 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Terrible analogy honestly. Feel free to not use this software, nobody will ever force you to use it.

This is not software to entertain you. It's a tool that you don't understand how to use and choose to blame the people building it for free.

[–] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It's a tool that you don't understand how to use and choose to blame the people ~~building it for free~~ failing to properly document their tool.

Ftfy

Just because it's provided free doesn't mean you're off the hook for not telling people how it works, dumbass

[–] qqq@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Why so hostile and the name calling..? They're saying it's a lot of work for oftentimes a single person to do. That's just the truth.

[–] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com -2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You're a fantastic idiot if that's what you actually think. That's not what they're saying nor relevant to the discussion at all

[–] qqq@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yikes. Not sure why I expected anything else.

[–] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 week ago

Cuz you're a moron

[–] qqq@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

There is a lot of entitlement around free software. People expecting free things, often written in someone's spare time, to be really polished just don't understand I guess. On top of that, good documentation is hard to write and sometimes it's a completely different skill than writing the software itself.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

dpkg -L package-name

Or the inverse

dpkg -S /usr/bin/somefile

For apt based distros, obviously.

[–] Lv_InSaNe_vL@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I just tried this with Samba (so dpkg -L samba and dpkg -S samba, and I also tried adding grep "smb.conf" and running it with sudo) and I was unable to find the share config file.

It's located under /etc/samba/smb.conf but that command was returning a path under my local user. This is on Ubuntu

[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

You might want to look into the locate package (it might be called mlocate) if you can't find a file. It can be helpful.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

dpkg -S requires a full path like the example I gave. dpkg -L samba should work fine. What is the error you got?

[–] Lv_InSaNe_vL@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago (2 children)

No error or anything, but it just doesn't have the /etc/samba/smb.conf file. Just doesn't have it.

dpkg -S samba does find /usr/share/samba/smb.conf which isn't the right file either.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

You're confusing the command again

 -L, --listfiles package-name...
               List files installed to your system from package-name.
 -S, --search filename-search-pattern...
               Search for a filename from installed packages.

dpkg -S /my/file/path

Finds which, installed, package installed the file.

dpkg -L samba | grep .conf

Greps through the list of files installed by a given package.

If the file you want isn't in there then it wasn't installed by the package itself (could be created on the fly by the binary for example), in which case obviously the package system can't track it.

[–] Lv_InSaNe_vL@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Oh I see, this command didn't really do what I wanted it to do then. I just wanted to be able to see the locations of any files associated with a program. If I knew the file path I could just find them haha

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

dpkg -L PACKAGE_NAME does what you want. In my initial reply I mentioned that dpkg -S is the inverse.

[–] Lv_InSaNe_vL@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Here is the entire output I get when I get that command.

username@server:~$ dpkg -L samba /usr/share/doc/samba/examples /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/README /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/get_next_oid /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/ol-schema-migrate.pl /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/samba-nds.schema /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/samba-schema-FDS.ldif /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/samba-schema-netscapeds5.x.README /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/samba-schema.IBMSecureWay /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/samba.ldif /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/samba.schema /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/samba.schema.at.IBM-DS /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/LDAP/samba.schema.oc.IBM-DS /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/genlogon /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/genlogon/genlogon.pl /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/mklogon /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/mklogon/mklogon.conf /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/mklogon/mklogon.pl /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/ntlogon /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/ntlogon/README /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/ntlogon/ntlogon.conf /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/logon/ntlogon/ntlogon.py /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/printing /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/printing/VampireDriversFunctions /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/printing/prtpub.c /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/printing/readme.prtpub /usr/share/doc/samba/examples/printing/smbprint.sysv /usr/share/lintian /usr/share/lintian/overrides /usr/share/lintian/overrides/samba /usr/share/man /usr/share/man/man1 /usr/share/man/man1/log2pcap.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/mvxattr.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/oLschema2ldif.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/profiles.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/sharesec.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/smbcontrol.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/smbstatus.1.gz /usr/share/man/man8 /usr/share/man/man8/eventlogadm.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8/nmbd.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8/pdbedit.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8/samba-bgqd.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8/samba-gpupdate.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8/samba.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8/samba_downgrade_db.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8/smbd.8.gz /usr/share/samba /usr/share/samba/admx /usr/share/samba/admx/GNOME_Settings.admx /usr/share/samba/admx/en-US /usr/share/samba/admx/en-US/GNOME_Settings.adml /usr/share/samba/admx/en-US/samba.adml /usr/share/samba/admx/ru-RU /usr/share/samba/admx/ru-RU/GNOME_Settings.adml /usr/share/samba/admx/samba.admx /usr/share/samba/mdssvc /usr/share/samba/mdssvc/elasticsearch_mappings.json /usr/share/samba/update-apparmor-samba-profile /var /var/lib /var/lib/samba /var/lib/samba/printers /var/lib/samba/printers/COLOR /var/lib/samba/printers/IA64 /var/lib/samba/printers/W32ALPHA /var/lib/samba/printers/W32MIPS /var/lib/samba/printers/W32PPC /var/lib/samba/printers/W32X86 /var/lib/samba/printers/WIN40 /var/lib/samba/printers/x64 /usr/share/bug/samba/presubj /usr/share/bug/samba/script

Now, if I grep those commands, I get these outputs

username@server:~$ dpkg -S samba | grep "smb.conf" samba-common: /usr/share/samba/smb.conf samba-common: /usr/share/doc/samba-common/examples/smb.conf.default python3-samba: /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/samba/gp/gp_smb_conf_ext.py

username@server:~$ dpkg -L samba | grep "smb.conf" username@server:~$

And these are copy and pasted straight from my terminal.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Like I said, it obviously can only track files installed by the package, if the conf was generated by the executable after, or if you created it, the package system cannot know about it.

Also, you're still using -S wrong. It takes a file path as argument, not a package name. And does the opposite of -L by showing you which installed package, if any, owns an existing file.

[–] Lv_InSaNe_vL@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

And like I said

this command didn't really do what I wanted it to do then

I just want to do something like find {package name} | grep "config.conf" or something like that. I normally know what the program is called, I just don't know where it is located.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

No it does exactly that. The issue is that the config you are looking at was not created by a package.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

That person wants to find a file used by a certain package.

You gave them a command to find a file shipped in a certain package.

Those are not the same things so no, you did not gave them what they wanted, as they clearly demonstrated by showing you that a file that they know is used by a certain packaged is not listed by the command you gave them when applied to that package.

You de facto did not solve that person's problem yet have repeatedly insisted you did:

Are you an LLM?!

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Re read their original.messsage. they specifically asked for, and I quote, "install paths". You're going to have to work on reading comprehension before accusing people of being LLMs.

Meanwhile, every single time they replied they used the command wrong... Provided the wrong value for the arguments. Despite the original instructions. Yeah, it didn't work for them. That's a skills issue.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

From their original post.

I’ve been using Linux daily for over a year now and I still have a hard time tracking down config files and install paths.

(empahsys mine)

To which you responded, with commands which are not guaranteed to do the former, only the latter, without making clear those limitations.

Your original advice is useful when paired with some clarification of its limitations, though given what the other person asked, it's insufficient advice. However by not making clear your advice's inability to in some cases do what the other person asked for, what you gave amounts to invalid advice because you've sent the other person down a dead end without making them aware that might be the case.

Then to add insult to injury, down the thread you repeatedly wrote that this is what they "wanted", which was obviously not the case as was very clear from the very start (it wasn't even what they asked for) and couldn't have been made clearer in the rest of the thread as the other person repeatedly said it was not what they wanted and even proved it.

The only reason I eventually intervened is because in a professional context I've had to correct lots of junior techies doing the exact kind of mistake you just did, though it's rare for even a fucking junior developer on their very first job to dig such a deep hole of insisting again, and again (and again, AND AGAIN) they know better than the person seeking advice what they actually WANT whilst giving them invalid advice, as you just did.

I mean, thanks for giving the advice and do keep on doing so, just learn to review your own internal assumptions about what they want if it starts to look like there's a mismatch between what you gave them based on your initial assumption and what they seem to need, especially if they themselves are telling you that's not what they want (and that person actually went extremelly far in trying to clarify things, even giving you the output of the command in their system to prove it didn't do what they want - non techie and/or low patience users would've given up on you far earlier than that person did).

Mind you, if you don't work in Tech and don't plan on doing so, feel free to ignore my post.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

and install paths

And also configs files do in fact get installed by packages. Not all of them, but some do.

Whether or not they are guaranteed to be there is irrelevantly pedantic.

So what exactly are you adding to the conversation here?

This wall of text does sound like it came straight from an LLM. Give me a receipt for turd muffins.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 1 week ago

You clearly are ridding the highest point of the Dunning-Krugger curve.

[–] qqq@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

This is a good argument for shipping an empty config file.

Your point stands, but this also isn't completely unintuitive. There is pattern there: you installed samba and the config is in /etc/samba/. System level installs will almost always install their config in /etc/ and the sub directory will typically match the name somewhat.

There is likely a general thought that if you're going to administer a samba server, you'll also be comfortable with conventions and man pages. Although, funnily enough, in the particular case of samba, man smb.conf doesn't show the path lol

[–] Lv_InSaNe_vL@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That's the thing though, when you install Samba it does create an empty config file at \etc\samba\smb.conf, or at least I've never created one

[–] qqq@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I see why it does this now. Debian does

CONFIG=/etc/samba/smb.conf
# stuff
ucf --three-way --debconf-ok /usr/share/samba/smb.conf "$CONFIG"

in the postinit inside the .deb file to create the /etc/samba/smb.conf file. They do it this way so they don't nuke an already created file. I take back that they should be shipping an empty file, this way is better, but it also means you'll never be able to query it without some changes to the packaging tools.

The man page should mention the path though that's a bit lame.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

This does not return all "config files and install paths" as it only ever considers files that came in the package, not files created by the package (such as /etc/samba.smb.conf, which is created during installation), so doesn't actually solve the problem.

That limitation should've been made clear in the advice itself so as not to send users that don't know better down dead ends, though the subsequent discussion between this and the previous user is a great illustration of how the way some give Linux "advice" just ends up frustrating those seeking advice.

(It even eventually frustrated me because over the years I've had to teach plenty of junior developers to not give advice like that, only they're seldom so bad that they insist they actually know what the other person wants even in the face of a user providing proof that they do not)

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

People can say what they want about Windows, having stuff installed in a folder called Program Files with sub folders using the brand/program name is so much simpler than whatever the fuck is going on on Linux.

[–] guy@lemmy.world 27 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Until an app decides to install in the hidden AppData folder with the confusing sub-folder names, or even the root of the user folder, or god forbid in a folder in the root of the C drive

[–] DmMacniel@feddit.org 14 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Local, LocalLow, Roaming really are confusing names ngl, but %AppData% isn't really hidden.

[–] qqq@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

It's funny because it seems like it's all just familiarity with conventions on both platforms. I've used Linux for around 15 years and I'm completely lost trying to find anything on a Windows computer.

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 week ago

It's hidden enough that I have had to provide tech support to my friends a few times on this. I think it's easy to forget how expertise shapes our perspective on these things

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 11 points 1 week ago

Also the two Program Files folders that have existed since the switch to 64-bit systems.

And third-party software installers that install stuff into their own secret places. Like Steam games.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I don't remember seeing something get installed in appdata, but having other files it depends on in there sure does happen though

[–] guy@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I've seen Electron based apps do this sometimes. GitHub Desktop, for instance

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago

Oh right, it's the only one I've seen doing it. You still get the prompt to ask where you want to install it and it just needs to not be in Program Files or you need to give it administrator access so it can update itself...

It's pretty ridiculous

[–] Shanmugha@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

WinXP times are long gone, my friend. These days I will sooner dig out where vim plugin source code resides on Linux than figure out config file location for a fucking game on Windows

[–] qqq@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

For user specific files a lot of modern programs try to adhere to https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/. You should set those environmental variables and check there first.

For system level.. it's definitely more complicated. I check /etc first and then then /usr dirs. If you're using your system package manager there is generally a way to query it for that information, but it's typically CLI based.

Or just use our lord and savior NixOS and configure everything in a single directory

[–] gens@programming.dev 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

As a long time linux user, I think all programs should have a config gui. (Not all, but you get what I mean)

[–] AstralPath@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 week ago

I think it should be GUI config or detailed man page/readme. The amount of assumed end-user knowledge by devs is way too high.

[–] redxef@feddit.org 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I usually start inotifywatch with read events, open the program, close it and see what inotifywatch dumped.

[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 4 points 1 week ago

Every time I touch a config file/setting I document it in my notes. I would be lost without it.

[–] 7toed@midwest.social 2 points 1 week ago

Suprised nobody said to use whereis xyz