It's insane how twisted in the head you have to be to think that killing your daughter is the honorable thing to do!
Religion is harmful to both individuals and society. Extreme religion is extremely harmful to both individuals and society.
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Note: There is exactly zero religion involved in honor killings; this is a 100% cultural act. Here are some choice quotes from Wikipedia:
Honor killings are primarily associated with the Middle East, the Maghreb and the Indian subcontinent, but they are also rooted in other societies, such as the Philippines, Northern Caucasus, Latin America, East Africa, and historically in Mediterranean Europe.
In French culture, stories about such homicides were romanticized and featured prominently in French literature of the 19th century, and "In literature as in life, unconventional women needed to be severely punished lest their defiant attitudes inspire further acts of rebellion".[33] In Corsica, there was a strong custom of vendetta, which required Corsicans to murder anyone who wronged their family honor. Between 1821 and 1852 approximately 4,300 vendetta killings were perpetrated in Corsica.[34] France also had a strong culture of dueling meant to uphold honor, and France was called by the National Geographic "the dueling capital of Europe".[35]
Though it may seem in a modern context that honor killings are tied to certain religious traditions, the data does not support this claim.[95][93] Research in Jordan found that teenagers who strongly endorsed honor killings in fact did not come from more religious households than teens who rejected it.[93] The ideology of honor is a cultural phenomenon that does not appear to be related to religion, be it Middle Eastern or Western countries, and honor killings likely have a long history in human societies which predate many modern religions.[96] In the US, a rural trend known as the "small-town effect" exhibits elevated incidents of argument-related homicides among white males, particularly in honor-oriented states in the South and the West, where everyone "knows your name and knows your shame." This is similarly observed in rural areas in other parts of the world.
Provocation in English law and related laws on adultery in English law, as well as Article 324 of the French penal code of 1810 were legal concepts which allowed for reduced punishment for the murder committed by a husband against his wife and her lover if the husband had caught them in the act of adultery.[101] On 7 November 1975, Law no. 617/75 Article 17 repealed the 1810 French Penal Code Article 324. The 1810 penal code Article 324 passed by Napoleon was copied by Middle Eastern Arab countries. It inspired Jordan's Article 340 which permitted the murder of a wife and her lover if caught in the act at the hands of her husband (today the article provides for mitigating circumstances).[102] France's 1810 Penal Code Article 324 also inspired the 1858 Ottoman Penal Code's Article 188, both the French Article 324 and Ottoman article 188 were drawn on to create Jordan's Article 340 which was retained even after a 1944 revision of Jordan's laws which did not touch public conduct and family law;[103][104][105] article 340 still applies to this day in a modified form.[102] France's Mandate over Lebanon resulted in its penal code being imposed there in 1943–1944, with the French-inspired Lebanese law for adultery allowing the mere accusation of adultery against women resulting in a maximum punishment of two years in prison while men have to be caught in the act and not merely accused, and are punished with only one year in prison.
So yeah, this is a big problem in many parts of the world and if your reaction to innocent women losing their lives is to make a tired and irrelevant point, then please don't.
Duelling was rarely to the death, and between consenting individuals whom were both armed.
Seems odd to draw a comparison between that and unarmed children getting murdered by family members.
It's more about extreme actions done in the name of "protecting honor".
~~honour~~ ego.
Funny then that when they move to another culture, and take it with them, it is always muslims.
I’m willing to bet this is less about religion and more about an awful piece of shit human. There’s many cases of people killing their kids in the US that have nothing to do with religion. Just assholes that shouldn’t exist.
I do agree that religion sucks and encourages awful people, but to murder your kid you have to be a deranged human to begin with.
many cases of people killing their kids in the US
We can take a look at honour killings ?
In 1989 in St. Louis, Missouri, sixteen-year-old Palestina (Tina) Isa was murdered by her Palestinian father, Zein Isa
Amina and Sarah Said were the children of an Egyptian immigrant father Yaser Abdel Said
Sandeela Kanwal was a Pakistani woman living in the Atlanta metropolitan area in Clayton County, Georgia, who was murdered by her father Chaudhry Rashid[1] in an honor killing, on July 6, 2008
In February 2009, Muzzammil Hassan (Pakistani American) was arrested and charged with murdering his estranged wife Aasiya Zubair with a knife
Faleh Hassan Almaleki, an Iraqi immigrant, used his vehicle to strike and kill his daughter Noor Almaleki (aged 20) in a Phoenix valley parking lot in October 2009
Jordanian-American Ali Mahmood Awad Irsan was sentenced to death in a Texas court on August 14, 2018, for the murders of Gelareh Bagherzadeh and Coty Beavers in Greater Houston
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States
Something in common with them all, I don't know what 🤔
If you label "when people from the middle east kill family members for disobeying the family" as honor killings, then yes it's going to be a list of primarily Muslim people.
If you replace "from the middle east" with "from Italian-American culture" you get a list of mafioso.
If you replace it with "from the Italian peninsula c.0 AD" then you get a list of Roman patriarchs who had the literal power of life or death legally over their offspring and numbered rather than named their useless daughters.
Islam did not make these people kill their families. It did however make an American decide to call it an "honor killing".
Yes, 'honor killing' happens at different rates in different cultures, and it being an important factor in Middle Eastern culture could explain a higher rates in these cultures. But I am wondering, do we kill our daughters and wifes less here in the West? Or do we just give up different motives than honor? The US certainly has a very high femicide rate, higher than most Middle Eastern countries. (according to this website. Haven't found infanticide rates yet.
You can listen to podcasts of Muslim "elders" and they openly laugh and boast about how women "should not even be heard" when those elders live in non-Eastern countries. Yes, England, I'm looking at you.
One of the core societal demands of the prophet Mohamed, blessings and peace be upon him, was to end the practice of burying daughters alive. At the time a daughter was considered a disgrace, so some pre-islamic Arabs murdered their daughters this way.
The Quran is also very explicit about the rights of women and the correct behavior towards them, something that is often ignored in societies that claim to be muslim, but evidently did not read much.
"OG Islam" is fundamentally opposed to femicide. Femicides aren't a religious but a cultural issue and prevalent outside of religious groups too.
"Don't kill women" making "OG Islam" somehow "better" is a pretty low fucking bar.
Nearly all religion is a regressive cancer on society used as a scapegoat to do terrible things.
That's ignoring their point, though. They are simply pointing out that the father in this article is not following the Quran, they're following some other twisted ideology that uses the Quran as an excuse, despite the source material explicitly telling them not to do this type of behavior.
As a side note, I'm not religious, and I do believe that organized religion has been the cause of horrible atrocities. I just think your response isn't really addressing what the other person was debating, but maybe I'm wrong.
they're following some other twisted ideology that uses the Quran as an excuse,
Fun fact: The Quran doesn't feature into these, not even as an excuse. My reply to the parent comment has more details, but people who do these vile acts take "honor violations warrant death" to be an axiom on its own, just as a birthday warrants a celebration and a sick family member warrants a visit. I mean, there's a reason the words "Islam" and "religion" feature exactly 0 times in the article.
To be fair, the article does start of with referring to Pakistan as "Muslim-majority country". This is probably where the association came from.
It's true, rights for women in the Islamic world and their treatment is far better than in the western world!
The Quran is also very explicit about the rights of women and the correct behavior towards them, something that is often ignored in societies that claim to be muslim, but evidently did not read much.
Exactly!
I really wish the west would catch up to the Islamic world with how it treats its women. I especially like how they are so progressive when it comes to gays and lesbians, inshallah !
/s
I live in a country where I've heard a 15-16yo Pakistani kid on a packed bus state he was going to kill his sister because he didn't like who she was dating - and that he had hit her before because of it. I don't think most people have any idea how normalised it is in their culture. The country is England.
Not sure if this is relevent, but I just wanna share my story.
My mom wants me dead because I have depression.
Not schizophrenia, not sociopathy/psychopathy, just being a little more sad than "normal".
The reasoning? "Because you wouldn't be able to enjoy life anyways, and your life is meaning less", threatning to leave me out of the will because "you can just get welfare from the government", despite me helping her with a lot of her stuff like bussiness licenses, filing taxes, translation (they are first-gen immigrants), etc. Like wtf is this concept of leaving someone with nothing when they have been so helpful throughout your life, just because "you have depression and you are no longer useful to society". Then put obstacles in me getting antidepresdants because "you can't be relying on meds for the rest of your life, just go outside" bitch wtf? Go outside to the ICE agents swarming the streets?
(I'm Chinese-American)
I mean at lesst I'm not dead yet, so I probably don't deserve to complain too much, some people have it worse than me, I mean this person in the article literally got murdered. Tbh there were moments when I was a teen that I thought my mom was gonna stab me when I sleep. The fact I'm even alive is a miracle.
This toxic culture is why I never want to return to PRC, not to mention, the CCP problem.
But... now... the USA is also on fire becauses... I mean... you know... current events...
Life is going great! 🫠
Can't complain! (literally can't complain else you get arrested)
That's horrible, I don't really know what to say, except best wishes to you.
I always thought Chinese were a more pragmatic people than most, but this is not pragmatic of your parents, this is cynical and evil.
Chinese culture is like you pretend to be very nice to other people, but the abuse is within the family.
Like the 红包 (red packets) for Lunar New Year is so... wild.
Like so you give your friend's kids $50 and their parents give your kids $50 then pretend like this is an actual gift, but then when they go home, the parents are like: "给我帮你保管" (Let me help you safeguard it)
Like... what is the point of the red packets then? Money gets shuffled but it just end up in the same people's hands.
I mean at least that's how my parents did it, I think my aunt's more Americanized family actually let their kids buy stuff?
I went to my cousin's house once (not willingly btw) and their family arrived in the US earlier than mine, so they cousins were born on US soil (as opposed to me who is first-gen immigrant), their father (my uncle) was from Hong Kong, so basically very western-minded.
They had an entire game system (Nintendo Wii something) in their house, I never had a game system lol, I was so jealous. Tbf they are slightly richer (like "middle class" rich), but even later on when my parents got more disposable income (like teenage years), I never got any games, or toys.
Like the vibes I was getting was that their household was still very strict, but not they actually get to have fun sometimes.
I think its this "filial piety" thing that is fucking toxic as hell.
I guess I see this with politics as well. I mean on the surface you never see Xi acting like the buffoons in the US-Republican party (I mean y'all know those crazy trump tweets and thinnly veiled racism, that sort of crazy stuff). The CCP might not outright do crazy shit like that, they do put up this act that make them look good, but deep down, they are both the same. In this analogy, the country is like the family, the civillians are like the children, children gets yelled at or even beaten (police harassing dissidents), but then the parents (the CCP) talks to everyone else (other countries) like everything is fine.
Family, Country, these patterns repeat.
I mean on the other hand, the US is like that conservative man in the suburb that open-carries a gun everywhere (the 18 aircraft carriers and hundreds of military bases world wide) and sees everyone as a threat ("inverventions" in other countries)
Seems like culture and politics are so intertwined.
(I feel like I'm rambling... idk if this wall of text even makes sense)
Doesn't anyone find the recent uptick in articles about Islamic fundamentalist crimes odd? There are billions of people in the world and these sorts of things happen frequently, yet they rarely receive non-local news coverage. It seems to me like the media is capitalizing on rising Islamophobia (due to the escalating conflicts in the Middle East) by releasing sensational articles about Islamic extremism, which has the effect of drumming up more Islamophobic hate. When crimes like this are committed in the US by Christians the media tends to blame mental illness.
Are you daring to suggest that posts on Lemmy by certain accounts are only to manipulate public opinion. No!!!1
- "Lemmy is too small, why would bots bother?" etc, etc.
I mean a white christian german man killed an algerian med student in Germany 3 days ago and we don’t see much news about it.
Murder of Algerian woman in Germany prompts protests, calls for justice
What is this Meta media literacy? Real talk though, I bet you could find the Christian equivalent if you looked hard enough.
A family with a child murderer as its head is obviously more honourable than the alternative. Morons.
They call it "honour killings" but it sure is a disgrace...
Im glad i live somewhere civilized and that could n-
...shit.
Honour is just their excuse, of course - it's really just about controlling women. These weak fuckers feel their control slipping and their go-to is murder.
Media needs to give a new term to the concept of Pakistani "honor". Governments are afraid to touch it (esp. the UK govt.) with regard to Pakistanis in particular and Islam. Probably for fear of being victims of 'honor' killings themselves given recent history.
My proposal is "legal cause to slit the dad's throat in self-defense".
Well in this case it would have been a 16 year old girl against an adult man with a gun.
Not the best chances for self defense.
She probably thought it was toss up to be murdered immediately and quickly or suffer a slow death by daily anti-women injustices. She was dead anyway for simply having a brain as well as a vagina.
I'd say it was because she had both a brain and vagina at the same time. Patriarchy supporters go insane when they're forced to realize women can use their brains.
What a fucknut
Must have been one of those fanatic atheists again, right? They are evil and probably worship Satan. /s