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118
Deus Ex devs say they weren't trying to make a statement when they made one of the most political games of all time: 'What I think is the right future for humanity is irrelevant. It's all about...' (www.pcgamer.com)
submitted 1 day ago by Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world to c/games@lemmy.world
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[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 43 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

Honestly? I believe it. It was just a huge hodge podge of conspiracy theories and activist/terrorist groups that folk had vaguely heard about that would never have worked together. And said conspiracy theories tended to have a VERY fragile basis in reality. But also... shit like FEMA being an evil organization that is giving us all a plague has totally been a conspiracy theory for as long as FEMA existed... and just as questionable for why FEMA would be the org doing that. People see what they want to see and ignore what they don't.

It is similar to how... based on a lot of the references he has used and his comments in interviews, I 100% believe that Kojima mostly wrote the MGSes apolitically. I firmly believe someone on his team actually cared, but those games are mostly just a bunch of action movie tropes (or outright scenes) combined with a very surface level understanding of nuclear weapons and reciting encyclopedia articles to sound smart.

Stuff like this always makes me think we need a "poe's law but for politics". And it always reminds me of Austin "Papa Bear" Walker shitposting in the Remap twitch chat during one of the keighleys. Trailer for the Call of Duty where you are fighting for The Gipper (?) and invading Generic Middle Eastern Country and blowing shit up for US interests and Austin just said (paraphrasing) "if I were in charge of marketing it would be this exact same trailer but you would know I was angry about it".

[–] Coelacanth@aggregatet.org 14 points 1 day ago

Yeah, I believe Warren Spector has said before that the premise of Deus Ex was literally "what it every conspiracy theory was true", and not really anything deeper than that.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

I don't believe it, or rather, I think Warren Spector and Ricardo Bare really didn't intend for it to be political, as both of them were far more focused on the game parts of Deus Ex; the mechanics, the balancing, the level design, etc, and are seemingly oblivious to how the writers took those puzzle pieces and made it political. Though the extent that Spector is completely unaware of that fact seems unlikely, and instead he almost appears to be whitewashing what the writers intended? Based on his stance that only movies and books can be political (which is a wild take, since games actually seem the most ripe medium for that), he may be trying to frame Deus Ex as A-political because of that.

It's very odd that this article didn't interview the lead writer of Deus Ex, Sheldon Pacotti, for an article about the politics of the game. Sheldon absolutely intended for it to be political, and in an old interview even goes into how capital is used to exploit and suppress the working class, which is what leads to radical terrorist groups, such as the NSF. He mentions in the first part of that interview series how the designers would create the levels without any concept for a story (citing the blown up statue of liberty as an example, which the level designer just thought would be an arresting sight to the player, but didn't consider how it would tie into a wider narrative).

I think Ross's Game Dungeon on Deus Ex really shows how Pacotti was able to make Deus Ex realistically political by tackling real societal problems that we all now face, and very few games dare touch, which continues to set it apart it decades later.

Also @Coelacanth@aggregatet.org & @paultimate14@lemmy.world

[–] paultimate14@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think of that with BioShock 1 and Infinite too. Rapture was an atheist society while Colombia was highly religious. Colombia was highly centralized and regulated by an authoritarian dictator, while Rapture is deregulated and allows private businesses to run wild and cause chaos. It's almost as if BioShock Infinite was written as a counterpoint, to clarify that the first game was not meant to be political.

I suppose you could say both games are criticizing extremism, which combine to form a centrist message. But even that I think was less of a choice to discuss politics and moreso just "We need conflict to create an interesting videogame. What's a good way to create conflict? Just take some political views and crank them up to the extreme- surely no one will sympathize with them then!"

[–] SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Today centrism is the more extreme type of political leanings.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Idk if Kojima truly made MGS with no politics in mind. He kinda predicted a lot of reality of the past few years with 2 and 4.

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 2 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

That is one of those tell me without telling me deals.

All the "ai will take over a post truth society" bits and the focus on mercenaries was all over sci fi for decades by that point and a lot of the former goes back to a mix of the Frankenstein complex (which is literally creation myths) and the Reagan Nixon debate.

It is why there is so much truth in the torture Nexus memes.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

At least there aren't walking nuclear battle tanks capable of launching undetectable nuclear strikes from any point on the globe.

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 2 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Because submarines are even more terrifying and even more effective

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 1 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

They would be especially terrifying if you saw one following you while hiking up a mountain trail.

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 1 points 8 hours ago

Maybe? Any military presence on a mountain trail would make me break out the wipes and the poop bottle.

My point is more that it is one of those things that goes against "Kojima is a much less neocon version of Tom Clancy" that goes around.

The idea of Metal Gear as a tool to fire undetectable nukes from anywhere on the planet (that a giant walking mech can get to...) completely ignores that submarines are already doing that. And there really isn't a defense to an ICBM unless you have Trigger themselves in the area of operations when the sub surfaces. The "defense" to an ICBM is to fire off all yours before it hits and make sure everyone dies. MAYBE Rex gives you one or two first strikes before the missiles start launching but... again, see "submarines". The moment the first hit, President Solidus would say "ah no you di'n't!" and have the subs surface and fire off their ICBMs and the end result would be exactly the same.

That also doesn't get into how bad an idea any form of walking tank is (which, to be fair, was briefly acknowledged in MGS3). I love my Gundams and my Battlemechs but unless you have minovsky particle magic you just rapidly recreate the meta that thousands of house rules have failed to stop in Battletech: 1000 points of Atlas goes down REAL fast when you have even 500 points of effectively pickup trucks with gauss guns on the back. Jaburo wouldn't have panicked and fed themselves to Kamille and Not-Char attacking. They would have grabbed their ATGMs and started leaning out of bolt holes to light those two up.

And if Rex hadn't been inside of a giant missile silo (hmmm), it would have been lit up by a bombing run the moment someone saw it on satellite imagery.

But that is kind of my point. The MGSes, like Deus Ex, is mostly a hodge podge of conspiracy theories and cool concepts from other media. People see what they want in there and handwave the rest.

Does that mean the story is not political? Of course not (even if DX is inconsistent to the point it might be... Like... that Alex Garland Civil War might be less nonsensical in terms of sides somehow). But you can very much have an author(s) with no political intent make a political statement.

[–] solsangraal@lemmy.zip 17 points 1 day ago (1 children)

in my late teens/early 20s this game made me aware of more conspiracy theories than i even imagined possible, and i loved it. amazing game. pretty cutting edge at the time, but it aged poorly gameplay-wise. none of the sequels came close for me. i'd buy a well-done faithful remake of this in a heartbeat

[–] Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (4 children)

I am just curious, what makes you say it has aged poorly in terms of gameplay? I would argue it holds up pretty well, but I am also a PC/KB+M only player. I strongly dislike UI/UX that has been compromised (from my perspective) for consoles/controllers.

Agreed regarding the sequels (haven't played the fourth one, just the 2nd and 3rd sequel); they are OK, but not that special.

[–] darthelmet@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

A while ago I tried it out and I can concur on it feeling clunky. To each their own, but I just have a fairly low tolerance for games not feeling smooth to play. There are a lot of games I've dropped in less than an hour because it just didn't feel good to play even if I might have liked some of the ideas or systems.

[–] Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That's totally fair.

I've played Deus Ex times that I sort of enjoy the clunky and RPG progression gunplay.

[–] mbfalzar@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 8 hours ago

I played Deus Ex for the first time like, 6 months ago and it didn't feel particularly clunky. It's not great, but it's perfectly okay, and I'm someone who plays with a controller at every possible opportunity and I think BG3 is a better experience on a controller, having tried it both ways

[–] Coelacanth@aggregatet.org 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I just finished Mankind Divided earlier this month. I think it has higher highs than Human Revolution but suffers from being the planned "middle game" in the trilogy. It has better gameplay than HR, some great levels and some really good side quests. Also a really well executed apartheid theme that played out really well.

I definitely recommend you playing it. It's not gonna be OG Deus Ex, but it's a good game.

[–] Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I really need to play it. I am sure I would enjoy it. I thought Human Revolution and even Invisible War (with mods) were decent. Invisible War is fundamentally flawed due to the small maps though.

[–] solsangraal@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

i'm also a KB/M player, and to be honest it's been several (many...? i don't remember when) years since i've tried OG deus ex 1, and remember thinking damn this seems like a chore.

i might just need to give it another shot, with full awareness i'll never get the same experience of playing through for the first time on windows 98.

[–] Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Yeah, I can see what you mean by saying guns are chore, it takes some time for them to be effective.

Try one of the mods, they greatly improve things compared for he baseline game (I haven't played the baseline version in 15 years).

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I've made multiple attempts to finish Deus Ex over the years after giving up each time due to aspects of the gameplay. I would normally never give a game so many shots, but I love so many aspects of Deus Ex, I want to finish it, but I just can't push myself to continue at certain points.

I think the biggest blockers for me is I love stealth games (thief 1 & 2 are all time favorites), and since Deus Ex does have a stealth system (though primitive), I tried to play it like a stealth game. a vanilla install means that tranq darts make enemies run around like headless chickens for a minute, and knocking people out with the baton is unreliable. Combined, stealthing is both visually comical, and realistically very frustrating to play.

I could deal with that, and I've tried switching it up by going more guns blazing, but the gunplay of Deus Ex is just as clunky, with slow firing weapons that deal little damage on fairly bullet spongy enemies. Combat just doesn't feel good.

I tried mods and overhauls to see if I could rectify either of those points, which do sorta work as a bandaid. GMDX makes stealth WAY more fun by making headshots with darts work instantly, and baton-ing more reliable. With it, I was able to get all the way to France without quitting, but I think due to GMDX, I hit a massive difficulty spike where my stealth build became much less viable, and it once again just became frustrating. Perhaps a gun-build with GMDX would've been the winning combo.

I think my best experience was with the Revision overhaul, but by then I had started the game over so many times over so many years, I just didn't have the appetite to get all the way back to France.

It's a truly spectacular game in terms of story and open-ended level design, but the mechanics really are a turn-off. I wish my first playthrough had been with the Revision overhaul (though I wish it didn't radically change the level design so much), but even still, I think it would benefit from a Nightdive style remake.

[–] Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I see. Yes, stealth is in a strange position where it's difficult to use it full time. There are multiple missions/maps where you will eventually not be able to use stealth.

I can see what you mean regarding guns being clunky. They do get more effective as you level up and get better weapons. Early game gunplay is very iffy.

But I actually like the RPG approach to gunplay and how it forces you to try and avoid direct confrontation and use a mixture of stealth and combat.

That being said, these are all fair points.

I've actually never tried Revision. I only use GMDX. Should try it for next play through. i feel like I need to reinstall once I clear out a major deliverable for work. :)

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I didn't mind the RPG elements of the gunplay either, it was how lame all the guns felt to use even with higher skill levels.

The shotguns take way too many rounds to down people, the smgs are pea shooters, and pistols can work 'okay' with headshots, but still just feel meh. I assume the sniper rifle is more effective, but I never used it much.

I wish they had made it to where low skill makes reloading and accuracy suffer greatly, but if you do manage to score a hit, it hits hard. That would make shotguns in the early game super valuable, but they could've still encouraged stealth and more thoughtful tactics by limiting ammo availability.

Basically the RPG and story elements combined with Tarkov style gunplay and thief-style stealth would be heaven for me.

I'd be curious of your thoughts on revision, if you ever feel like coming back to this comment section by the time you finish it!

[–] Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world 3 points 16 hours ago

I am a big user if sniper rifle + pistol combos. It works pretty well.

Will need to post a mini-review of Revision the next time I get to replay Deus Ex.

[–] MajinBlayze@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago

The most gamer of all gamer moments

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 9 points 1 day ago

It, like most games of the era, followed the rule of cool. As such, it references a ton of similarly themed media. A lot of which was cyberpunk, conspiracy theories, and general sci-fi. All the unique ideas in the game are really just in the game part. The story and all that is almost all entirely lifted from other sources. So it makes sense to me that they didn't project their own message into the game. It doesn't say anything the media that inspired it hadn't already said.