Yes, remember when blue team was kidnapping people, trafficking them to foreign blacksites and refusing the return them even when proven wrong? Remember when they removed elected officials from government briefings by force? Remember when democrats organised a military parade for the dear leader's birthday?
this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2025
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Yes but, I guess they at least weren't residents I guess. To be fair prison for a lotta people isn't much better. Lots of democrats have been "tough on crime" before.
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No they're more interested in shitting on the few fellow democrats that actually have leftist beliefs, or even a spine.
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I'll give you this one. Americas military fetish has always been bad, but that was exceptionally pathetic.
I don't think they're the same thing, but they're part of the same systematic ratcheting over to the right. They're the ratchet, and MAGAts are the gear, cranking along to the right.
Not the same thing, but working in unison to accomplish the same outcome. Whether or not its intended.
So when people say they're the same, its not that democrats causing the issues, its that they're seemingly doing very little to stop it. Because they're willing to throw people into the meat grinder in the hopes they don't get thrown in too.
They're the same in that no party is willing to address or fix the systematic issues of late stage capitalism, outside of a few tokens viewed as "niche", kept to be laughed at and to keep those paying attention quiet.
That's what people mean when they say that.
Im Canadian, i can’t count how many times it feels like we’ve held our nose and voted for a liberal we didn’t love, to stop a right wing nut job from being elected. I think that’s one thing I resent about my American friends right now, they couldn’t just oppose trump. This was not the election to take that stand, especially when you take a stand based on what’s going on in other countries as opposed to what’s festering in your own. You want change in the democrats, well get in there at the bottom level from school boards to local government to primaries, you can’t change it from the top. You have to do it before the federal election.
At least you have more than two options. We literally cannot vote against anything that two political parties agree on. What's more, anti-establishment forces like Bernie Sanders and AOC are either sidelined or used to redirect voter dissatisfaction into votes for establishment candidates. So while I agree with the need to effect change locally, its doubtful that we can enact meaningful change at the federal level.
It both parties agree on an issue then why make it an election deciding issue? You won’t get anywhere. You deal with that in primaries or after you’ve elected a person who cares what voters think, unlike trump. Everyone here complains but how many people here are actually registered as democrats and taking part in voting for and assisting people like AOC get on the ballot? You can’t expect change if you’re not out there volunteering and helping the party change, you won’t change it from the outside.
You can’t complain during the federal election about things that should have been dealt with before that point. Also it’s wild to me and everyone outside the US that even now after everything, people are still insisting that Harris and Trump are the same, that’s just beyond comprehension.
Vote in primaries, find and fundraise better candidates, and so on. It's not going to do much in the short term, but parties have major platform changes every generation.
I think people would do well to let go of the idea that the parties as a whole have an ideology. George W. Bush and Donald Trump are not remotely the same. Bernie and Manchin are not the same.
Yes there's a good bit of overlap in the venn diagram of their supporters, but MAGA was functionally a hostile takeover of the GOP. The old guard was made to get on board or find a new job.
If Bernie had been elected in 2016 the outcome for the DNC would likely have been just as dramatic. If you want the Democratic party to be a leftist party, go make it one. We've literally seen a major party pushed to fascism. You know know change is possible.
The enduring ideology of the political establishment is the promotion and protection of the ruling class' interests--invariably at the expense of the working class. Both parties serve the same master, and because there are only two, the voters don't have much say in the matter. Progressives, like Bernie, who call out the billionaire donors are the exception to the rule. (More on him later.)
Seen from the leftist perspective, the overlap in the Venn Diagram is a consistent commitment from our politicians to put profits over people. It is why both George Bush and Barack Obama bailed out Wall Street (to give just one example of corporate welfare). It is why SCOTUS declared corporations "people" and campaign donations "free speech". It's why the U.S. has engaged in neo-imperialism over the land, labour, natural resources, and markets of developing nations. It's why the CIA assassinated democratically elected leaders in South America and Asia. It's why we've had decades of stock market growth while wages continue to stagnate. This is not accidental: the system is working as intended.
If Bernie had been elected in 2016 the outcome for the DNC would likely have been just as dramatic. If you want the Democratic party to be a leftist party, go make it one. We’ve literally seen a major party pushed to fascism. You know know change is possible.
I wrote this in another comment but I'll reiterate here. Bernie did not get a fair chance at the presidency. The DNC limited the number of debates (not allowing their favourite to be taken to task), they gave Hillary debate questions ahead of time, gave Trump/Clinton all the media coverage, etc. It is damn near impossible to succeed as a third-party candidate (sorry, Jill Stein) so a self-proclaimed socialist has to run as a Democrat and play by their rule book. And they don't even have to play by their own rules! (Court Concedes DNC Had the Right to Rig Primaries Against Sanders.) When AOC runs, they'll do the same thing and then she will spend her time in Congress backing establishment democrats. Please realize that the political elite would much rather shift to the right than to the left. The far left-wing actually threatens the profits of the wealthy.
Then spoil a ballot, write in a nonsensical candidate name, or vote third-party. If you refuse to vote your action is literally indistinguishable from someone who has no opinion at all.
Spoiling a ballot is just non-voting with extra steps.
No, because the spoiled ballots are, in many cases, actually counted. This is what people did in Hong Kong when the Government imposed electoral reform designed to prevent pro-democracy and localist groups from winning. Since it was illegal to tell people to not vote (pro-democracy groups had urged a boycott), people showed up to cast spoiled ballots. That election had among the highest numbers of spoiled ballots in the region's history.
Ah yes. Hong Kong, such a famous victory for democracy.
I'm trying my best not to call you names here, but the point of that exercise was not to exert democratic power but to cause embarrassment for the Government. The Government tried their hardest to make it look like a legitimate election but got utterly humiliated instead with low turnout and large numbers of spoiled ballots.
Not sure why you want to call me names. My guess is we probably agree on more than we don't.
I was just (admittedly, sarcastically) pointing out that perhaps copying methods that have WORKED might be better than copying methods that... Maybe slightly annoyed a couple of CCP officials? I'm sure everyone in China still thinks the election was legitimate, and pretty much everyone outside of China didn't need any sort of protest vote to tell them it wasn't.
In the US we have been non-voting for decades. That's exactly how we got into this mess. Non-voting isn't going to make anything better.
I agree with that generally, but what "methods that work" do you suggest?
Edit: To add, the protest spoilt ballots and low turnout in Hong Kong did exactly what they were supposed to do. It convinced other Hongkongers that the elected Legislative Council is not legitimate and was installed, not elected. This is particularly troublesome for the Government, because Hongkongers have a famous tendency to protest, and sometimes rather intensely.
What if my choice of third party is being hunted down by the government?
To clarify: I endorse voting because it takes, maybe, an hour of your time every year. (We should have a national voting day, but that's another discussion.) Great, that disclaimer is now out of the way.
The two parties are playing good-cop/bad-cop for the oligarchy. Republicans push the ruling class' agenda and the Democrats pretend to stop them.
Meanwhile, income inequality has been exploding for almost 50 years. The cost of housing, groceries, healthcare, college, child care, insurance, debt are increasing as money is systematically SIPHONED from the lower classes. Productivity increases, the rich get richer, and the bottom of the pyramid (i.e., those who have wages instead of assets) are forced to live on the edge of financial ruin. One missed paycheck or one medical emergency away from homelessness.
The implication of this post is the need for civic engagement in addition to voting. We're going to need grassroots organization. Mass protests, boycotts, strikes, and civil disobedience are all required to take the country back from the oligarchy.