Ask Lemmy

Another possible reason may be online dating.

https://youtu.be/x3lypVnJ0HM

Most people use online dating. Average looking men have very low chances to get a match because of : The much lower number of women on these platforms compared to men; which leads to the logical consequence of men lowering standards to increase their chances of getting a match; which of course leads to women being more selective causing a feedback loop that compounds on itself. So only the highly attractive men get a lot of likes and this leads to them being promiscuous which makes women think all men are assholes. And because finding a date is easy for women it's also very easy to ghost men for the smallest things.

And this whole system is also propped up by the Match group which owns all major dating apps in order to squeeze out as much as they can out of desperate people, basically monetizing loneliness.

When you swipe and swipe for months and only get one date and get ghosted right after, you start to devalue yourself, what other explanation can there be except that as a man you are horrible. And you spiral into depression and blame yourself (when in fact the whole system is wrong and is bad for both men and women).

Then suddenly comes a macho man who tells you that women are the problem, that it's not you (and that they also have courses to sell that will make you finally get women), of course you're gonna believe him, finally a way out of depression. A wrong way, a shitty way, but a way nonetheless.

These people are hurt and are acting out in the wrong way, leading to more hurting. And people like Andrew Tate are getting rich off of it.

PS: A long time ago OkCupid had you answering between 20 and a few hundreds of questions, plus answers you'd expect from your potential partner, plus how important that question is for you; and then it would show you a list of matched in order of compatibility. It was amazing. (but it got bought out by Match and turned into a tinder clone).

Men need a daddy figure.

Weak fathers, in the sense that the recent generations have been abandoned and ignored a lot more. Turns out that is on par with fucking beating your kids. At least the boomers got attention from their fathers.

How to deal with women and sexuality from a young male perspective is practically impossible in modern society without a good role model for how to approach the reality of certain issues revolving the truth that men and women are equal and at the same time the young males have much more strength, while the girls have other ways of being mean, that are perceived as being not regulated as harshly, and that's glossing over so many other significant biological differences. The conflicting messages feels unfair to them, loneliness in this as well as a lack of belonging will more often than not become unbearable if they don't find guidance.

That's my view of the issue at least. It is redicilously easy to grift these young men, that yearns for answers surrounding sexuality and relationship with the other sex (to be clear, for hetero young males that are developing or adults with stunted development) that anyone can learn the cultures' accumulated trigger words and key issues that appeal to their supposed inner private pain, can be predated with little effort. They don't care or know it's shared with so many boys and adults, that a grifter can basically trawl bountifully for men that feel this way, and once you have "vibe" by appealing to these, you can then elevate yourself to an iron man role model by lying that you get women often by being in a certain way. (Not surprisingly, the mindset is flawlessly unsuccessful with women.)

The absolute truth is that all women like different kinds of men just as men like different women, and to be anything but you leads to extreme stress and in this case potentially wasting years or decades on some testosterone fever dream that never existed. The allure for a man or boy in this state can become so strong that, not unlike with traditional "pick up artists" and other forms of grifting, conspiracies and cults, it just does not matter that most know it is a lie, or if people submit evidence to that end. It's because these people do not connect with the young male and provide lasting guidance to replace their fears, which are very hard to uncover because of the vulnerability issues (more on this later).

If I could say something to these young or adult men suffering I would say, imagine you did succeed to become an "alpha", hustle your ass off and become rich and get women. If they can imagine it, they must realise that at that point, you will be utterly sad. Worn, tired, bored, and the women, every single one you "caught" don't like you. You will have no friends. Nobody enjoys your company for who you are, but for a formula sold to you as a male peak. The pinnacle of self realisation and real relationships can only come with being you, including flaws and therefore accentuating your strengths. Real strengths. Strength that is effortless. The real peak is becoming more you, and severely fuck the rest. The girls (but this also holds for all relationships, however their attachment model may not be ready yet) that like what you are, no matter anything else in the universe, will love you for it almost no matter what, because you didn't sell a lie to them. This wonderfully includes people that aren't attracted or even those that don't enjoy the things you do.

And this means; be vulnerable. That is why all grifters focus on stigmatizing and burying any vulnerability in everyone around them, even belittling honesty. It's partially a defence mechanism for most, but a few actively protect the communities by making sure this is simultaneously frowned upon, but also met with respect, so that none of the initiates see through the lies in the surrogate father system and realise the complete farce that they are subjected to. For adults that have matured sufficiently (and therefore also most young women) these role models in incel, red pill and alpha cultures are instantly recognised as people with deep insecurities and ridiculed. That is an easily deflected commentary by appealing to jealousy. It comes naturally because jealousy is the hook for the entire grift and the irony in this case is almost guaranteed to fall on deaf ears. These role model grifters that are elevated in the social hierarchy of these communities are usually men that have elected to not mature past this barrier, mainly because of how painful it is, and can therefore sell this scam even for free and proliferation of these ideas strengthen the bond between those caught in the more specific mind traps that flourish in these spaces.

For the people that mature in the role, often they separate immediately, or become ostritized for their ideas. For the few but continuously revolving grifters themselves, if they don't leave at a big moment of realisation, it is certain to become very tiring to keep the mask on for work, and they are eventually exposed as betas or similar "them" keyword, and ejected for something they let slip or that was gleaned. Most of the communities are held up in a cycle of new initiates and old mentors, while a few grifters make their livelyhood on it. It has a high rate of rejects and new initiates that makes it a hydra for anyone looking to slay these ideas.

Once our society emerge with more accurate labels for these types of grifts (such as "red pill" "incel" and others), we coin vocabulary terms useful to more accurately describe and identify the phenomenon in conjunction with the concepts themselves and hopefully it leads to (as can be seen with the explosive growth and decline of "pick up artists") the concurrent amount of trapped boys decrease over time before we can see it settle as a sub community of less importance. In earnest I don't see it going away completely but linger and flare up periodically with new mutations of the same age old "pick up artist" young male loneliness appeal, since it is a inherent to teenage and young men loaded with testosterone and for many that also never found guidance even as adults. Yet it may with time get called out for what it is and met with compassion to finally remove it from main culture where I think many agree it have overstayed its welcome.

With education, it can be eradicated just like many many other forms of gifting. Social awareness on both general and individual levels should also be of deep benefit to the men that find themselves without belonging and holding very confusing and burdensome feelings and thoughts. If we can connect and empathise with them we can give them more genuine advice that stays with them their entire lives. The inherent tough nut with this type of rite of passage for young men is that compassion and forgiveness is both not appealing and also not exactly the first thing most feel when confronted with an insecure alpha male clocking their feathers. It becomes a self feeding loop as they are very similar to each other in this experience, especially for people that has lacking relationships with their male role models or with the other sex or peers.

It is identifiable by the traits that are the same with the mentor figures in red pill communities, acting tough, closing off relationships, hustling and adhering to early first century standards for social hierarchy. These traits are apparently for some reason inherently more attractive to adopt to a developing individual that has elevated testosterone, and when the individual choice is between asking for guidance and meet their pain and fear vs binging red pill content on YouTube and bonding with similarly outcast lost boys on discord.

The path of least resistance wins out when this category of developing man meets the need for belonging and thirst for relationship advice that resonates with their specific trials and questions which, at that point is honestly quite disturbing to most adults. I hope this message can find someone that needs it, hope you are doing great and looking forward to the future. Cheers

How do people learn how to parent teenagers these days?

Because they are insecure and he makes them feel valued. It's as simple as that. He tells them they're worth more than the next brown person or female person because they are a man.

I'm a 50+ dude, married for 25+years and I have no idea who this Andrew Tate is nor who young men identify to nowadays (I wanted to be Michel Strogoff and an astronaut and Maria Callas too, as a little boy) but I would say that it was enough for me to read some of the comments (way too many of them) in this discussion to get a pretty good glimpse of what may be causing such a split. At least partly.

Could it be that young men and teens are growing tired of being told they're a threat (to women, when it's not to the whole society) or, when they're not a threat that they still are a nuisance, just because they have a dick and because that dick may sometimes grow bigger and harder when they feel attracted to another person?

My childhood was what today's press would call 'traumatizing' (and not just once, mind you) but at the very least I did not grew up afraid of my dick getting hard because I was attracted to someone. And I was never too afraid to ask that person if they felt the same interest and if they would be willing in exploring it further together (more often than not, I was being told 'no').

For the rest, one simply needs to add a lot of partisanship, militant certainties and self-proclaimed righteousness with hordes of so-called experts and journalists that have no clue what their job is supposed to be about (hint: it's not about making the buzz and not about collecting page views, or Likes) and then, on top of that, add a handful of smart-ass people (some real assholes too) that want to profit from all that stupidity that is raging-on everywhere, in every 'camp'.

It's easy to tell people, boys and girls alike, what they want to hear and nothing but what they want to hear. That they're right, that they're great and that the other group is just assholes that hate them. And to profit out of that.

It's so easy that I'm seriously starting to wonder if the next generation or maybe the one after them will still be able and willing to make love or even just to enjoy some intimate good time together, and to make babies by themselves? Maybe I should invest a few cents in whatever startup will undoubtedly show-up and try to profit from that situation. Pretty sure I would make a fortune...

Sad times, indeed. I will go make some coffee and pour a cup for both my spouse and I.

Edit 1h later: you're welcome to downvote till the end of times if that helps you feel any 'righter' in your opinions, or if it helps you think you're punishing me (really?) but may I remind you that without any explanation no amount of downvote will help me understand any better why you disagree with what I wrote. Also, I won't be able to read or contribute any further to this very interesting exchange we've had so far as I'll leave for a long walk to and back from a tiny bookshop that is set nearby the Seine. A real nice shop and a real nice and long walk which means that, taking into account the fact I will probably spend some time there chatting with the lady owner (there are much are closer bookshops to our place, like a lot closer, but I really like how she works and how she really cares to help customers find the right book for them and not just try to shove them whatever the latest trendy book is and be done with them. So, I shop at her place). Considering all of that, I shouldn't be back before at least 3 hours. PS: our cup of coffee was great.

It's what uneducated men do when they end up making society so hostile to women that women don't want to date anymore.

A more extreme version of this happened durning the Arab Spring.

Issue one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQv8VuLpKN4

political outcome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSw04BwQy4M

I blame the algorithms. This shit is oushed in front of impressionable young men's faces by most social media algorithms because it drives (toxic) engagement. Others have already described why it's appealing.

This shit has always existed but it's given a soap box because corporate wants number to go up, and sadly parents these days leave parenting up to social media so they don't teach them that these views are abhorrent.

I've never met any who do

Some backward guys can't cope with women thinking for themselves, and long for the "good old times" when a wife 100% depended on her husband.

Any idiot promising to bring those "good old times" back will find interested listeners among this crowd.

If I were female, I would run for the hill if I noticed someone with interest in Tate's fairy tales.

Lack of education (and a university degree changes nothing) which ends in a lack of critical thinking. The causes are deeper than "it's the economy", "they are delusional", "social media", even if social media is bad for critical thinking. You still have to educate yourself in many fields to develop your cognitive capabilities, and this from a young age.

Going outside, playing with a stick and a rock, develops your brain. You're the actor of your life. A smartphone screen puts the kid in a passive state.

But it would be too easy to blame just this. It's more than one factor. This politics of doom scrolling serves an economical purpose. The economy is over wellbeing. More and more norms are put on the human being, alienating them.

Masculinism is a simple theory, solution, to a more complex issue. Humans like these simple answers.

We have to address these multiple dots connected to each other's. It's not just masculinity, it's the society in which we want to live.

Who else are they going to turn to? It's rare for boys and young men to have positive male role models.

Because we are in a culture war and most people are dumb as fuck mass-produced NPCs in a rotten society but think they're low-key geniuses.