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World won’t forget Tiananmen Square, US and Taiwan say on 36th anniversary of massacre
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 04 Jun 2025
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As an American I think it's helpful to put this into some sort of perspective.
Things the US won't forget:
Things the US will forget:
Korean War (3mil civilian dead)
Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)
Iraqi War (1mil civilian dead)
Violent overthrow of East Timor (widely considered a genocide)
Violent overthrow of Afghanistan (twice, over 1 mil dead)
Violent overthrow of Nicaragua
Violent overthrow of Grenada
Violent overthrow of Panama
Violent overthrow of Libya
Coup d'etat of Guatemala
Coup d'etat of Iran
Failed Coup d'etat of Syria
Failed Coup d'etat of Indonesia
Many failed Coup d'etat attempts on Cuba
Coup d'etat of Congo
Coup d'etat of Laos
Coup d'etat of the Dominican Republic
Coup d'etat of Iraq
Coup d'etat of Brazil
Successful Coup d'etat of Indonesia (1 mil dead)
Coup d'etat of Chile
Multiple Coup d'etat of Bolivia
Coup d'etat of Haiti
Multiple Coup d'etat attempts on Venezuela
Coup d'etat of Palestine
Mass civilian casualties, destabilization of many governments, people subject to a lifetime of torture without a trial, all under the War on Terror
This list could be so much longer, but I gotta get to work.
Imagine thinking that the US has forgotten any of these when they're a constantly pressure on the cultural zeitgeist even literal decades later. Or, for that matter, that the Korean War is in any way comparable.
Twice? Christ, tell me you aren't talking about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Not to mention that the 'overthrow' of 'Afghanistan' the second time would rely on recognizing the Taliban, and not the democratically-oriented Northern Alliance which was fighting them at the time, as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.
Yeah, just recently I rewatched Apocalypse Now. And I've never been to the U.S. or Vietnam. I agree, this is pretty much alive in cultural memory, not forgotten.
What's ironic is that his list conveniently forgets China's invasion of Vietnam 1979.
Is it better to be drowned out than forgotten?
The "pressure on the cultural zeitgeist" you speak of is just "shoot, then cry". The victims are forgotten.
Hey, hey, hey...
They at least got hit movies and TV shows! ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS*H_(film)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS*H_(TV_series)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platoon_(film)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Metal_Jacket
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Beach
Most of that looks right, but
Ok, this was Indonesia, with murican quiet assent, but still, don't give other countries a pass on these things to make them look clean.
Many of these also involved the local elites going to the US for help. e.g. The draft UN resolution for the no-fly zone in Lybia was produced by the Arab League and backed by the African Union, which pressured russia and China not to veto it.
It is not my intention to give other countries a pass. Indonesia is guilty of genocide in the case of East Timor; the US is guilty as well.
The genocide in East Timor is analogous to the ongoing genocide in Palestine.
Both genocides are not conducted by US personnel, but the majority of arms are supplied by the US. The US gives international legitimacy to the genocidal party, while running defense for it's atrocities. The genocide in East Timor was ended by a phone call from the US president, and I am of the firm belief that the genocide in Gaza could be ended by a similar call. Previous Israeli atrocities were ended by calls from Reagan and Bush Sr.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Wow. Fascinating. Thanks for the link.
This makes perfect sense, it's one thing for Taiwanese and Chinese people to remember it but its absolute hypocrisy for the west to comment. Especially as they fund the genocide in Gaza and Western Liberals make excuses for it.
No, it doesn't. Only people who are full shit use and defend this fallacy. People who have principles call out shitty behaviors and actions whenever they see them, that's because principles are universal. If you selectively choose when to apply them, then you don't believe in them.
I can critize and dislike the US involvement in Korea, the ongoing genocide in Gaza, AND the Tiananmen Square massacre.
I can rank which ones killed more people, but no one should be committing any crimes against humanity like these regardless of scale
It'd be a bit like if China and it's entire sphere once a year went crazy commemorating the Kent State or Haymarket Massacre. They wouldn't be wrong to say these are bad things, but it'd clearly be in service of some ulterior motive.
Honestly, even with an ulterior motive, I see no reason they shouldn't.
The thing is, only the US and West do this shit of constantly complaining about other countries and celebrating their historical tragedies every year. And it's not a coincidence that they're also the countries to invade and constantly engage in imperialism all around the world the most, and have the capacity to, with hundreds of military bases around the world.
It's such obvious propaganda against foreign enemies, especially ones we want to fight. You think it would make it super obvious how propagandized Americans are, but they don't see the hypocrisy at all because of that very propaganda.
What would be the point in China bringing up the Haymarket massacre or Kent state every year? And for that matter, what's the point in the US bringing up the Tiannamen Square every year?
Glass houses indeed.
The US brings up its own horrible events all the time.
I learned about The Trail of Tears, the era of segregation, and of the KKK in my history class in America. We make conscious efforts to be aware of and criticize our own faults - as well as those of other nations.
There is currently LOTS of criticism of the US government for its participation in the massacre in Palestine. Claiming otherwise is lying. China is relatively unique in that it has committed atrocities, and refuses to allow anyone in its own country to acknowledge them. Both countries have done bad things. One country recognizes those facts and attempts to learn from them.
The US is not allowing criticism of Palestine. Not sure if you've seen the stuff happening in college campuses, job applications, the DNC where they didn't allow a speaker, even local elections where foreign policy shouldn't matter, etc. And it's only going to get worse according to the 2025 plan, where it details additional attempts to shut it down. It's also been downplaying other stuff in schools, such as the negative parts of slavery, Jim Crow, basically everything bad the US has ever done. The problem with our education system is that it depends a lot on which state, city, and even school you are from (private or public, charter or not, etc.).
The whole conflict about critical race theory and the Moms for Liberty stuff is all about them trying to roll these things back.
I agree their censorship is too high in China, though, but I think it's a result of siege theory. Essentially they've seen the US do a million coup attempts and color revolutions in other countries, often successful, and so you if you're a third world country you basically need a tight control of your press and elections if you want to resist US control. And I doubt seeing us fall to propaganda in the US from billionaire backed media organizations and foreign countries is going to encourage them to not censor though. Unfortunately, if anything, it will do the opposite.
Buddy, fuck right the hell off. The USA is not the only country with free media. Small countries do it too. Al Jazeera is quartered in Qatar, and is critical of both the USA and China. China enacts the Great Firewall because they're power-hungry, not because they want to fucking stay safe, and they are not in any regard a third world country.
Al Jazeera is a terrible for you, but a great example for my point. It never mentions things critical of Qatar ever. It's good for news about other stuff, like Palestine, which the US media is likewise horrible about covering. It's why nobody here knew about the situation there until October 7th.
I know your question is rhetorical, but hypothetically China could do that with the aim of whipping up their population into hating the American government more, making them more willing to swallow local authoritarianism and foreign imperialism framed as national defense. That's basically what the US is doing in the current arrangement, only reversed.
"Whataboutism" can occasionally be an honest critique of a spurious argument.
When it's just a link on it's own, it's almost always cover for hypocrisy.
Yep that's exactly my point, the US is doing Whataboutism when it issues these PR stunts to condemn Chinese atrocities.
Allowing the government to be taken over by fascists makes any "remembering" of horrific events pretty meaningless anyway. In the context of government, not individuals.
That shit gets brought up all the fucking time, in their own threads. Notice how people don't bring up Tiananmen Square, Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, the Uyghurs, or the many other atrocities the CCP has committed whenever an American atrocity gets mentioned.
Your comment ignores the context that the US is doing anti-Chinese propaganda here, and there is no parity.
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, and China was releasing PR statements on every anniversary of every US atrocity. They would still be issuing multiple statements every day.
China is also doing anti-American/anti-West propaganda. It's just favored differently because of different cultural values of the target audience. Still stinks the same.
How is the US doing "anti-Chinese propaganda"?
Every time the US president says "CHAYYYNNA", I consider that anti-Chinese propaganda.
What? What that fuck are you talking about and how is it relevant to the tiananmen square massacre?
It isn't relevant. I'm just making fun of your president.
I don't have a president.
All the fucking time? Really? When was the last time the Coup d'état against Aristide was discussed around here?
Post about it on it's anniversary then. Don't bring it up as a whataboutism in unrelated threads.
I didn't bring up anything, the comment you responded to did. My comment was my first intervention in this thread and I was responding to you specifically. You said that things like that get brought up all the time. I am asking you for the receipts. When was the Haitian coup d'état brought up before today?
Add to the list the US support of the Israeli war crimes currently going on in Gaza. Just yesterday they vetoed a ceasefire and delivery of aid proposition in the UN.
WHATABOUT.
Name a more iconic duo than tankies and misinformation.
Hey, the difference is, you can post this list here, and nothing will happen to you.
Become a Chinese citizen, and then post that single bullet item about the TS incident in China, on a Chinese social media. Then see what happens.
That may be true, but it doesn't excuse the list at all.
My country is responsible for the majority of international violence since WWII. I find that morally unacceptable.
I make posts like this because I want my country to do better. But the sad reality is we have yet to learn our lesson. We have been aiding and abetting an ongoing Holocaust for almost two years now.