How do these Natalists feel about the African continent?
this post was submitted on 13 Apr 2025
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There is nothing bad about going back to a sustainable population level. The cost for raising a child is greater than the cost for taking care of elderly. When elderly die that frees up resources for the next generation making it even easier.
The problem with declining population is the huge bubble pop you get when the population is mostly elderly people and few workers.
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Right, but this can be resolved with immigration.
That's not a solution, that's just outsourcing the childbirth
Immigration isn’t ‘outsourcing childbirth’, it’s investing in the future of our country. People who come here, build lives, and raise families contribute just as much to our communities as anyone born here. Their children are American in every meaningful way. That’s not a loophole, that’s the foundation of our nation. If we start drawing lines around who counts as a 'real' solution based on origin, we’re moving away from what has always made America strong.
I think their point is that you then have to rely on other populations to breed workers for you which in the long term is not sustainable.
I could be wrong though. I'm a soft anti-natalist myself, but I do think an aging population is going to cause problems.
Outsourcing is a solution.
If the original goal (as stated) is maintaining sustainable population levels, not really, since that implies maintaining the same population level, just outsourcing part of the childbirth (and potentially raising and education)
Maybe in the west. Not in places like South Korea or Japan. Even if you got the populations to buy in to immigration 100%, you’ve got an impossible task convincing immigrants to learn the language.
English’s hegemony over the world makes immigration to non-English-speaking areas a huge problem. Quebec, for example, tries mightily to force immigrants to learn French and the results are quite ugly in Quebec politics.
I mean you're presupposing that it's important to convince immigrants to learn the language. Maybe multiculturualism is okay actually
Learning the local language is a survival skill. It doesn’t require forgetting your first language nor does it mean the end of your culture.
The issue is that groups of immigrants can form enclaves where they speak their own language but not the local language. This has the effect of making them “second class” and limiting both their economic opportunities and their overall contribution to society.
This implies that each of us is in charge of whether we are "second class" citizens or not. It's the people in power who control the social structure. They decide what "class" a person is. Immigrants are often attracted to their own communities not just for comfort and familiarity, but also for practical reasons. These communities step in where the government fails to. They help new arrivals find jobs, transport, and places to sleep/live. They enable people to have their basic needs met, in a country run by people who already think that poor immigrants aren't the same class/worthiness as they are.
It doesn't have to be this way. If the people in power gave a shit about the rest of us, if they truly wanted immigrants to thrive, they would build a social structure that actually enables that. Immigrant groups don't inherently limit their own economic opportunities - those limits are created by those who treat them as "less".
One last thing - to say that immigrants' "overall contribution to society" is "limited" by them being in their own communities, implies that any of the work done within those communities doesn't count as "contributing to society." It also implies that the jobs that are usually filled by immigrants, such as crop-picking and other agricultural work, are jobs that don't contribute enough to society. Yet I'd argue such people contribute more than many U.S.-born people I've met.
You’ve made a very vague statement without any substance, sorry. “People in power” are not the reason a person who does not speak the language spoken in an office finds it difficult to get a job in that office. Language barriers make communication (and therefore collaboration) difficult or even impossible. It is no one’s fault that language barriers exist but immigrants without the necessary language skills are at a disadvantage.
If there’s anyone to blame, it’s the people in power in the home country of the immigrants who created the conditions where immigration into such a disadvantaged situation is preferable to remaining at home.
If your population is declining and immigrants aren't even learning the language, it's not "multiculturalism", it's just handing the country over to another culture. Taking into account that progressive values are correlated with lower birthrates, and "regressive" ones are related to higher birthrates, are you comfortable with the consequences of this transition?
Are you sure that things like women's rights are going to stay the same in the long term by substituting the secular population with people raised with religious values associated with high birth rates, like indians, middle easterners, africans and so on? Are you sure material conditions will remain the same by substituting the working class with immigrants from countries with poor education systems, fresh off large scale political instability?
Do we? The languages aren't that hard, people learn languages all the time especially if they move.
Just make it a requirement for citizenship, offer classes, etc. I'm picking up 2 languages right now, 1 for work and 1 for my new home in Europe. The human brain does things.
Ok, so I actually speak some french (from school), and that's not about it not being English, it's just that French is a shit language to push for no reason.
Tell Quebec to switch to Spanish, everyone will be happier.
Most people don't want to learn another language they want to do other stuff.
Example: me, I want to do other stuff.
They aren't exclusive.
I learn languages without actualy putting in effort, just fucking expose yourself.
Also, that's fucking rude, this is their country and their culture, you should respect them.
I don't even respect my own culture.
Mine's let me down a lot lately.
But other cultures, I'm a guest.
No one chooses to exist, so you could argue we're captives regardless of where we are. Not guests.
But yeah, I'm not moving anywhere that speaks a different language anyway if I can avoid it. Sounds like too much of an impediment and risk, being unable to function in society that you don't speak the language in. You end up too vulnerable and dependent on strangers and I don't tend to trust people I don't know.
If you enjoy on an intrinsic level learning another language, fine. That certainly would explain why you "learn without putting in effort". Its not for me however. I have no desire. I'm far more interested in other things.
If you already know French, can you get an “in” immigration wise?
Yeah but no more of an “in” than knowing English. Immigration policy is controlled by the federal government which only cares if you know one of the two official languages of the country (or not).
This is Asia we're talking about. The land of robots. They'll be fine.
Or robots.
Korea used to have 2 workers and 10 dependents. Now its 2 workers and 7 dependents. There are literally more workers per dependent. There's no bubble that will pop.
Where are your statistics? Do any cursory searching and you’ll find that South Korea is desperate for care workers. There’s a huge shortage.
The 6 kids on average for South Korea in the 1950's was from the Kurzgesagt video originally posted.
2 parents caring for 6 kids and 4 grandparents equals 10 dependents.
2 parents caring for 4 grandparents and 1 kid equals 5 dependents.
And then finally 1 kid caring for 2 parents and 4 grandparents. 1 worker and 6 dependents.
Holy [citation needed], Batman!
Cost to raise 1 child is $350k including college.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-raise-a-child-240000/
https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college
Average nursing home cost is $120k/yr and people live on average 2 years in a nursing home.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2945440/
2 parents working
6 kids = $2.1m 4 grandparents = $960k
So you're comparing the cost of 18 years' worth of child-rearing (or 22 years' worth including college) to an up-to-$120k per year cost of supporting an elderly person, and aren't even bothering to consider anything but the last two years?
In what fantasy world is $15,900/year ($350k/22 years) somehow more than the annual cost of living for a senior citizen—even a healthy and independent one‽
Until a senior citizen needs to have nursing home care, they are independent. In-home care is far cheaper. They don't need the costs of 6 hours a day of schooling which cost $15k per child in taxes to pay for the teachers and infrastructure. (That $15k/year isn't part of the $350k cost quoted earlier because it's covered by taxes.)
https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics
You aren't making 3 meals a day for them because they do it themselves. You aren't paying for day care- until it's nursing home or in home care time. In many cases the elderly are providing the day care for children.
They still have to pay for it, though! Don't even try to tell me that an elderly person's regular living expenses — food, housing, utilities, etc. — averages out to less than $15,900/year.
Are you just forgetting those exist? Are you trying to compare the total costs of raising a child, including all living expenses, to only the extra age-related costs of caring for an elderly person, not including living expenses? 'Cause it sure seems like that's what you're doing.
And if it's a multigenerational household where that's feasible on a daily basis because they live there, then they could even save on housing expenses too (maybe even brining down their living expenses to nearly equal to that of a child in the same household).
But we're talking averages, and that's not the average — neither living together, nor providing regular day care. On average in the US, elderly people live separately from their grandkids and only see them occasionally.
That $15k/year is just for school. You think a child doesn't also need food/housing/utilities?
That mean they on average, were put into the nursing house at 81yo. Do you think people retire at 80yo or what?
Until then they require less resources than a child. They don't need $15k a year in public resources for schooling.
True, but the lack of productive workers and the thinned tax base will crash the country while it all balances out. Only way to make a smooth transition is to slaughter the elderly, which is largely what will happen, just not on purpose.
If 10 dependents per 2 workers (6 kids, 4 elderly) didn't crash the country in 1950, then having more workers per dependent in 2040 won't either.
The only people who suffer from a population decline are the idle wealthy because their income comes from skimming profit from the workers.
You keep bringing up the same point but do you plan on just letting seniors rot? We literally don't have the workers to care for the elderly AND run society. Demographic collapse is a real issue
https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk
The video ignores the other side of the economic cost: the number of workers needed to support raising a child.
It costs more to raise a child than to care for elderly. Without child care costs there is a surplus to care for elderly.
Claiming South Korea is doomed because right now population growth is .8x is as ridiculous as those claiming South Korea was doomed in 1950 because at 6x population growth, everyone would starve in 50 years. Populations grow and contract to match their environment.
When the population has decreased to sustainable levels, individuals will have the free resources to raise children again.