this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2025
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You know what also works like that? Any other traditional business operation.
I am saying that since 2022: we only have a shot at this succeeding if we all start putting something at stake.
You are the exception, and you will find out that even the most prolific participants here claiming that $5 per year is enough to cover the hardware costs, so he doesn't see any reason to give more than that.
I didn't realize there was patrons for lemmy instances
Context for people reading this: https://feddit.org/post/2600584
Recent discussion I had with rglullis: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40374812/17448295
For lemmy.world / mastodon.world including some of the smaller instances we host, it's like 0,06 euro per active user per month. If every active user would pay 2 Euro per year that would be enough to cover hosting costs. If every active user would pay 1 euro per month, I could quit my dayjob and focus on the Fediverse fulltime.
(Sidenote: Stux and I created the non-profit Fedihosting Foundation which owns lemmy.world .. but finances are still separate for his and my instances)
Thank you for providing data for LW, and thank you for your sysadmin work!
While we are talking, there have been occurrences of "power tripping" by some LW mods (e.g. https://lemmy.world/post/23229045/14411568?sort=New) , is there any mechanism to escalate this to you?
Sending e-mail to info at lemmy dot world would be the best option. The team will pick that up.
(By the way: 2 EUR per year would be enough if every active user would donate that but they don't)
Thanks, I might send an email later.
Indeed. Have you thought about promoting this in an announcement post?
We have done before, but don't do that often, so we don't bother users too much. But we might do again soon, and maybe do a monthly post on the mastodons/sharkeys etc
Sounds good. db0 started to add flairs, including one for donators, maybe that's something you can consider as well:
Phrased another way: "I don't think you are allowed to make a living out of the work you do here, so thank you for accepting all this for free".
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40374812/17470674
The list of statements where you have the chance to share your values is still unanswered.
I answered here 5 days ago: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40374812/17470674
Which, for some reason, didn't make it to your instance? https://communick.news/comment/4930027
Both versions of the post also show 106 vs 105 comments, so there seems to be something here
I specifically said "you can just say agree or disagree", so please don't come with that "It would take too much time".
Please don't erase nuance from a conversation. Everything isn't yes or no answers.
Please start with the yes or no, the nuances can come after you plainly state your opinion about how much the work of admins is valuable to you.
Are you a child? Who has discussions like this??
You are right. These types of discussions are beyond silly. But you might not be aware that this back-and-forth between me and Blaze is going for months already and whenever he is asked about how he values the work of admins and FOSS developers, he goes full gas-lighting mode and refuses to answer.
I did answer: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40782400/17578308
Thank you for chiming in
Please reply to that comment https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40374812/17470674
No, thanks. I will not engage in any further discussion with you until you explicitly answer those statements.
Then we can stop talking for a while, I have other priorities. For people reading this, here's the content of my last comment.
You want to run a business.
Other admins are giving their time and energy without expecting to be paid. Ruud below just said it in an "If every active user would pay 1 euro per month, I could quit my dayjob and focus on the Fediverse fulltime", but that seems to be more like hypothetical scenario consideration than actually looking for this. Evidence: lack of recurring posts calling for funding on LW.
That's what I meant with the disagreement. Are you managing your instances pro bono or not? It seems like you are not, and you're the only admin who wants to create a business out of instances.
I don't think I'm going to answer the list of questions now because they require longer answers. Maybe later if I have some time.
Also, we've had that conversation many times. I see the local volunteers run library, or the hiking club, you want to make the system profitable so that admins and developers can make a living out of it.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/27053532/13176946
Thanks for making it clear that you are evading giving your straightforward opinion for the following statements:
Sorry for not having answering a 12 questions form as my top priority
Start with the top 3. A simple "yes" or "no".
That's borderline harassment
You called me dishonest when I said that you were evading to answer your opinion on the value of the work from admins. I ask you then to make it as clear as possible, to remove any chance of doubt.
You put a bunch of links to past conversations, but you highlight things that are not the main point of the argument and take things out of context, and you have the audacity to claim you are doing it "for context".
Now that I got wise about your games and decided to ask you to provide receipts, you continue to evade the answer and are showing you'd rather play the victim than owning up to your opinions.
That's your perspective. People reading our current and past discussions will make their own opinions.
You want to make a living out of the platform, to make a business out of it. I prefer it to be run by volunteers. That's the core difference between our visions. The 12 questions seem a bit much while the difference is quite obvious
This right here is a good example of you taking things out of context and not caring about "nuance" when it is convenient to you
Is it? Then why is it so problematic for you to say:
Is this comment not true anymore?
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/27053532/13176946
Are we stuck in a loop? Because it seems that yet again you are bringing things out of context and using it as a shield to avoid giving out your opinion.
You have the time to chase things around and select clips of whatever supports your worldview, but you do not have the time to say "I don't think admins should be compensated for their work".
I'm trying to just end this conversation, but you keep bringing stuff I have to debunk based on your previous statements.
Is the previous comment not true anymore?
Yeah, you keep trying to end the conversation because you painted yourself to a corner and you refuse to publicly admit that you do not want to support admins and FOSS developers.
The whole comment is true. Including the part where I say
I’m honestly tired of this crab mentality. People think it’s a sin to be upfront about their work and how much they value their time. It’s also quite ironic that I can see the huge overlap: those who are always virtue signaling and complaining about bosses who don’t pay enough to their employees are the same ones who refuse to patronize a small independent business
Why couldn't you highlight this part instead?
No. As stated several times, I do support admins. Now do I think Lemmy admins should be able to make a living out of managing an instance? Based on what we see (Ruud comment stating that not all active users give even 2€ per year to LW, which is the largest instance), it seems unrealistic. Maybe LW starts promoting donations more and get more income soon, that would be nice to see.
Sorry to tell you, but you're here with the crabs. And you can try to argue all you want that people should donate more to the admins and the devs, the reality is this is not happening. People might donate a few bucks per month to their instance, but providing enough money so that several sysadmins and programmers make a living out of Lemmy?
If you can't see the difference between employees of companies providing millions to stakeholders and 50k monthly active users, I don't know what to tell you.
As a general comment, your tone is always very confrontational. If you really want to start making money out of this platform, you might want to ask someone to manage your comments and posts.
Again, paying out to cover hardware costs is not the same as supporting the admins.
Holy $%&! what a contortionist way to avoid the response! You are sounding like a Monty Python comedy sketch.
I'm not asking what you think is "realistic". I'm asking whether you think admins should be compensated for their work.
Should I try again, or can I just assume that your answer is "no, I do not think that admins need to be compensated for their work." ?
Speak for yourself, then. But at least you are starting to show some honesty and admitting that you rather pull people down to your level instead of acknowledge the value of the work done by admins and developers.
You are getting at this exactly backwards.
It's not the employees of tech companies who complain about poor pay. Quite the opposite.
And the reason that Lemmy can not grow past 50k users is because the Fediverse is stuck on a horrible culture where they refuse to even acknowledge that the work of admins and developers is valuable, so those with the skills that could take the Fediverse to the next level are not going to be sacrificing themselves to serve a bunch of people who think they are entitled to free work from others just because they themselves are not able to do it.
That's your opinion. Do you really believe that if admins were unhappy with the current situation, they would keep "working for free" instead of shutting down the instances and moving on with their lives? What is stopping an admin unwilling to "give away their labor for free" from doing so?
The realism is the part you are missing? Do I think that everyone here should be paid for their work? Yes, of course. Sysadmins, developers, moderators, Fediverse advocates, active posters, even commenters deserve something, as every of those roles make the platform alive.
And you know that well as you are usually complaining no one posts on your communities or instances.
But stating that doesn't bring us anywhere. Where is this money we supposedly all deserve going to come from? Nowhere, because there is none. Or actually there is, but just enough to cover the server costs.
Do you see the Photon, Voyager, Mbin, Piefed developers going around like you treating the whole platform as crabs? Of all of the instance admins, you're the only one having this discourse.
How much money can a 50k community can provide?
If the Fediverse is such a horrible culture, why are you still here? Why don't you just create a startup, get some venture capital investments, create your superior social media platform, and then share it with us?
Again, you are going at this backwards.
Instead of asking yourself why the network can reach a few million users even when admins are unpaid, you should be wondering how much bigger the network would be if the current users appropriately invested in the ecosystem.
Amazing. By equating the value of the work provided by admins and developers (which you can not do) to the work of "Fediverse advocates and active posters" (which you want to do) you create a false equivalence that you think excuses you from giving full credit to others.
You said you did not respond to the original statements because "it would take too much time". Now, you spent more time trying to find a reasonable justification for your unwillingness to acknowledge the higher value of someone else's contribution and you still didn't give a straight out answer and resort to rhetorical tricks.
First: who is "we", here? Are you really implying that you should be getting money by participating?
Second: the money exists. You and many others can pay $10-20 / year for the service being provided to you. The problem is that you (and many others) do not want to acknowledge the value of the work and refuse to contribute beyond "covering the cost of hardware".
Actually, you're right, I don't have time for this. People will read this conversation and make their own minds.
I did make my position clear many times, you just don't want to understand it.
Yeah, you made it clear that you:
You made clear that you
Two can play that game
Not worth it, we had that conversation several times already