this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2025
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Rule of law is obviously sympathetic to Hamas.

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[–] plz1@lemmy.world 177 points 1 day ago (5 children)

While I agree they are unlikely to get a fair trial

  1. They don't deserve fairness
  2. If this wasn't leaked, they would go un-judged, which is the opposite end of that sliding scale they are complaining about by being outed as torturers.

I do wonder how much of it was "following orders" and how much was pure bloodlust. Neither excuses this, but the former would be indicative of bigger evil up the chain of command.

[–] QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works 121 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Everyone deserves a fair trial. If Israel cannot provide one then perhaps The Hague or Palestine can assist them in getting a fair trial.

[–] cecilkorik@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

A very reasonable and sensible perspective, but what if that's still not going to be a fair trial either? We all have pretty strong opinions about torture, so I think we may need to go the extra mile in this case. If no unbiased jury can be found anywhere on planet Earth, then we'll have to send them to Mars for a fair trial instead. It doesn't even have to be elaborate, we can use the rules of the good old fashioned "trial by ordeal". If you can survive on Mars, that demonstrates you were innocent all along and you can come right back home. Otherwise this is going to get dragged out for years and years while they dig up even more evidence and who knows what else may get discovered. This is really the best option for everyone. All aboard to Mars.

[–] kossa@feddit.org 26 points 22 hours ago (2 children)

A "fair trial" is not about having a jury or judge from Planet Neutral.

Is it about having a defence and a jury or judge who weigh the evidence of the prosecution against the counter-evidence of the defence properly, to come to a conclusion.

[–] cecilkorik@lemmy.ca 6 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I appreciate your attempt to be serious, but I'm going to continue to recommend trial by ordeal and since you brought up the possibility of having it be conducted on Planet Neutral then I'll support that too, I admit I don't know where it is but I'm assuming it's going to be a really, really, really long trip, especially at sublight speeds.

[–] sqgl@sh.itjust.works 2 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

There was a very high profile criminal rape trial in Australia this year which was abandoned permanently after one of the jurors was found to have snuck a magazine article into court. See Lerhmann vs Higgins.

That could have been a strategy arranged by the defence. But if you think the judiciary itself corruptly arranged it then think again...

There was a civil defamation trial later where it was found the accused did indeed commit rape "on the balance of probability" (vs the more strict criminal criterion of "beyond reasonable doubt").

So in this Israeli case the worry is now that the leak has damaged the likelihood of punishment for the perpetrators.

[–] TheBat@lemmy.world 61 points 1 day ago (2 children)

following orders

Now what does that remind of...

[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 47 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Every military ever.

The concept that a soldier is able to disobey an illegal order is flawed. The first thing that happens to them is being thrown in jail awaiting court martial. It's then on them to prove the order illegal be ause the presumption is that it was legal. It becomes one person against the whole military apparatus.

The penalty if found guilty of refusing to obey orders? At minimum (in the US) a dishonorable discharge. At most a room on death row.

I still think soldier should refuse illegal orders, but the system is setup so they don't.

[–] xenomor@lemmy.world 14 points 1 day ago

I for one am 100% done with giving soldiers any grace on these matters.

[–] TheGoldenV@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You should update your minimum. In the US military It’s actually an NJP to start. You can request court martial if desired and it goes from there.
Dishonorable discharge is very rare and you’re likely to end up with an OTH or BCD if the “infraction” is significant. I’d rather have some jail time than shoot civilians tbh.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Not even an NJP if you're a Nuke. I've told admirals to their face that I wasn't going to break the book to follow their stupid orders. I realize we are the prima donnas of the military though, and I wasn't just a Nuke.

[–] facelessbs@lemmy.world 2 points 23 hours ago (2 children)
[–] mx_smith@lemmy.world 5 points 22 hours ago

It’s someone who works on a nuclear powered ship. You have to take extra tests to get on a nuke and they only allow the smartest ASVAB scores to take the test.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 4 points 22 hours ago

Navy Nuclear Power Program Member

[–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 2 points 16 hours ago

The US has no draft, they choose to join, so they can go fuck themselves.
Assassins paid with taxpayer money, that's all they are.

[–] bold_atlas@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

Well we just have to make sure the consequences for obeying orders to commit war crimes are worse than what their superiors can dish out for disobeying those orders.

[–] Kn1ghtDigital@lemmy.zip 11 points 1 day ago

You always have a choice.

[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 10 points 22 hours ago

This is what happens with Fascist thugs. American citizens in the US are getting shot in the back by ICE and beaten. People are dissappearing or held in detention with no camera footage to leak. Same shit, different continent.

[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

Both equally idf terrorists like to terrorize paleatinins rape and torture them following Israel leaders policies

[–] 0x0@lemmy.zip -1 points 16 hours ago

how much was pure bloodlust.

90%, they're bred like that since they were born.