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The problem is the right no longer argue their points in good faith.
“The right” consists of individuals, just like “the left” does - and there’s plenty of bad faith to be found on both sides.
Is this like plenty of fine people on both sides? In aggregate, one side is far more egregious and it's not even close.
Speaking of bad faith..
Yes, and just like Trump, I'm not speaking of the white nationalists and nazies.
Source
Uh huh, and I'm sure we can take him at his word. It's not like he's ever lied. He never gave a nod to nazis ever, like telling the proud boys to stand by. Yup, good old not racist donnie, I'm sure he totally hates white supremacists.
You wanna talk bad faith, believe anything that comes out of his orange piehole.
Misrepresenting what someone says is a textbook example of bad faith so doing that in a discussion about bad faith is ironic to say the least. What he actually thinks is unrelated to this discussion as it's about what he said. You'd call people out for twisting your words so hold yourself to the same standards.
Not believing lying sociopaths is not bad faith, and I'm having trouble accepting that you'd actually think it is. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on mango mussolini anyway, as this discussion started when I claimed that the right lied way more than the left. The president wasn't responsible for all the lies the GOP has told for the past 50 years, although he sure does have more than his fair share.
You're misquoting him - that's bad faith. Whether or not you believe him is a separate issue. When you criticize someone for what they said, you should address their actual words - not your interpretation of them.
Again, this discussion isn't about him. You said both sides have plenty of bad faith, which is wrong. In light of this discussion I'm beginning to see why you can't understand the differences, or just refuse to.
It's you who brought him up with your smug "fine people on both sides" misquote and its him you've been talking ever since. Only now you're moving the goal posts back to what I originally was talking about.
What are you even claiming here? That there is no "plenty of" bad faith on the left too?
You are appearing more and more bad faith, or just plain grossly ignorant, and willfully so... If you won't accept the truth, the truth that is being handed to you, with references, by other people, then prepare to not be part of this "echo chamber" for much longer...
I don’t consider anything I’ve heard so far to be the kind of evidence that would indicate what I said is somehow false.
Obstinance should not be confused with confidance.
I don't even know what truths you think I'm not accepting here.
I don't change my views because people bully me for them. I change my views when someone demonstrates to me that they're worth changing and that haven't happened in this thread. What ever convincing arguments you may have seen clearly have not been convincing to me.
Yes, that is called, "obstinance". Or a lack of reading comprehension. Or both.
Note that this is the second statement he made, which he had to make after being called out by the media for seemingly supporting the neonazi protestors. Which, given his history at that point and subsequently, it's pretty obvious that the media was right and he was just back tracking due to bad publicity.
This is where the "fine people on both sides" quote originates from.
Snopes article on the matter.
Yeah, and it specifically ignores that the statement you posted was the second, clarifying statement days later. Snopes is going off what he said he meant, not actually what he said. Check the United the Right wiki page for the actual timeline.
Stop letting other people think for you.
...
The closest they have is the unattributed statement, again after the fact, trying to clarify what he said wasn't what he meant. Like they always do.
But it’s this very specific quote that people are misrepresenting. It’s not like he first said “there were fine people on both sides” and then, a few days later, clarified that he wasn’t talking about the Nazis. He said there were fine people on both sides and explicitly added that he was not referring to the Nazis - and it’s that latter part people omit when they spread the “fine people on both sides” quote.
Because he made that clarification after the fact from a scripted statement and an anonymous white house person.
Please stop acting like you know what happened. His unscripted comments did not include that, full stop.
Again, please stop letting people think for you. Here is the full statement in context. He unequivocally did not denounce the Nazis in his first statement, he gave generic statements about hate having no place in America, which is not the same as what you're falsely saying.
Nor did they include the "fine people on both sides" comment that people are misquoting.
Thank god you can point to ONE SINGLE instance where Trump isn't actively supporting white nationalist christofascism.
Every last one of them who voted for trump has decided that bigotry (of multiple sorts) and steamrolling our constitution in the name of authoritarianism are somewhere between just what they wanted and not a dealbreaker.
What else do I need to know about them?
https://www.project2025.observer/
That people identify on the political right outside of US as well?
Heh, I'm sure they are much better people than US conservatives, but I'll quote myself from elsehwere.
Maybe you should re-read my original comment? Because unless you think that Lemmy is not a left wing echo chamber then I have no clue what you're arguing about here exactly.
OK, have crawled up the context tree, and don't see where you think I've misunderstood your point. You think it's an echo chamber (I do not) and you think that's bad (I do not) and apparently I'm supposed to feel a little sheepish about not wanting shitty people with shitty behavior here at Lemmy. (I do not.)
Maybe I misread you. I think I'm being told not only that it is an echo chamber, but that I'm supposed to be bothered by it.
Meanwhile I haven't seen an argument for what we'd gain by having more conservatives here, or what's stopping those unicorn conservatives who aren't raging assholes from posting.
The issue with echo chambers is that they reinforce people’s existing beliefs instead of challenging them. That often comes with extreme hostility toward anyone who doesn’t share those beliefs. If the left in the US wants to win elections they need people to vote for them who might have voted right in the past. In order to achieve this, minds needs to be changed, and that doesn't happen in echo chambers. I’m sure you can see the value in a left-leaning person going to a place like Truth Social and, in a calm and respectful way, arguing against the claims they disagree with. Well, in my view, Lemmy could use something similar.
I also don’t think right-wingers are the only ones to blame when it comes to the breakdown of polite discussion. If you put someone who feels just as strongly about the left as people here feel about the right, it’s no surprise it turns into a mudslinging match. It takes two to tango.
One more thing -
Why do conversations like this always assume:
The entirety of my life's experience with conservatives is online or even recent.
That somehow I don't know what conservatives support. I'm looking at the effects of what they support in the news right now. Just like I did during the satanic panic, just like I did during all their attempts to take away the rights of women, just like I did during my lifetime of watching them try to treat the actual lives of LGBTQ+ like a fucking talking point, just like I've done during my lifetime of watching how their policies impact black people, and (since the current group hasn't yet figured out how to reach back in time and change textbooks) just like I learned during all my various history classes.
So now, when the conservatives in the world are the most openly hateful and bigoted they have ever been in my nearly sixty years, folks are going to scold me for being fucking done with them? Do not want, do not accept.
For sixty fucking years the group of people most obviously and loudly working to make things miserable for the fucking rest of us has been conservatives. WHAT am I going to learn now from them? A deeper understanding for how little they care about anyone not like them? The nuance of their bigotry?
In my view, again, nothing is stopping them. They either know how to have an adult discussion or they don't. Plenty of people on Lemmy who also disagree with them will back them up for that if they can actually have an adult conversation. Probably even me, but since I've not seen that happen yet, tough to say!
You are entitled to your own opinion.