this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2025
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[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 41 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

The actually reality is this:

Literally nothing is known about this woman outside of a single narrative written by a supposed 14th century Moroccan historian, Ibn Abi Zar', who we know nothing about either outside of him being a historian. Actually, most academics doubt that he was any sort of scholar to begin with because the source of this information is not reliable.

There's literally ZERO evidence to support that this historian was one or that this woman was even real. In fact there's evidence that supports the notion that this story is fake because the inscriptions inside the mosque use a different script than what is claimed in the story. Most academics are skeptical of her existence and her story is treated as a cultural legend rather than historical fact.

Also within the folktale story, which by the way was written over 600 years after her supposed death, claims that she, along with her sister, inherited the wealth from their wealthy merchant father, and they both decided to use that fortune to build two parallel mosques in the same city.

The thing is that mosques in the early islamic periods were more like community centers than purely religious institutions. So it wasn't uncommon for mosques to have a learning center as a part of the complex. Keep in mind, these learning centers were islamic schools that taught islam. They weren't centers for researching and preserving knowledge like modern universities.

Over time, these mosques were repurposed to the needs of their time. Some were turned into purely religious institutions, some were demolished, some were turned into political seats of power, some remained community centers, and some evolved into purely islamic madrasas. Al Qarawiyyin was one of the latter. So this post is nothing more than blatant misinformation.

Tl;dr: This story is fake, this person isn't real, the historical source is unreliable, and the institution is not an actual university but a mosque that later became an islamic madrasa.

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)
  1. al-Qarawiyyin was started as a mosque-madrasa complex.

  2. Science and spirituality were intricately entwined during this era. As an example, Dharmic concepts of sunya led to the conceptualization of zero and its use in mathematical operations which is foundational to many subsequent scientific advancements and necessary to our communication through this platform.

  3. Part of what sets al-Qarawiyyin apart is that it offered degrees or certificates of scholarly achievement before other institutions.

  4. This is why UNESCO’s World Heritage description of the Fez Medina explicitly calls al‑Qarawiyyin “the oldest university in the world,” and Guinness lists it as the “oldest existing, continually operating higher‑learning institution”.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Nah I think OP is right. Googling around the story seems mostly made up for bragging points. It also started as religious school not sciences 100% and probably did more harm than good for women's rights considering Morocco is at the very fucking bottom (137th).

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Interesting that googling would take precedence over UNESCO or Guinness in a science community of all places. Guinness particularly is known to have rigorous quality standards.

I'm going to trust actual organizations with institutional standards over a Google search. That's just me though. Other readers can draw their own conclusions.

[–] AlligatorBlizzard@sh.itjust.works 7 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I trust UNESCO, but isn't Guinness basically pay-to-play, like if I got together with my entire city and we baked the world's largest pizza, verified by a number of neutral third parties but I don't pay the $$$ to bring the Guinness team, according to them it doesn't count?

[–] skeuomorphology@feddit.uk 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

The UNESCO claim seems to be false, too. There is no mention of al-Qarawiyyin in UNESCO's description of the Medina of Fez: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/170

In any case, UNESCO make it crystal clear that they only publish the nomination description, which is written by the state party (in this case the Government of Morocco). UNESCO understandably and explicitly disclaim the description documents, and only publish them for transparency.

I do wish we didn't have these reality-distorting memes everywhere. Leave them to the far right - they don't do Islam any favours, and they piss off real historians.

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

This is cited from 2012 according to Wikipedia. Archived versions can be accessed in the citations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_al-Qarawiyyin

This article from BBC in 2018 also makes the same mention:

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20180318-the-worlds-oldest-centre-of-learning

[–] tobogganablaze@lemmus.org 15 points 1 day ago (2 children)

It was more of a mosque until very recently, so not really.

[–] zout@fedia.io 27 points 1 day ago

That depends on the the view point. It is true that it was founded as a mosque, and became a teaching centre later. Since universities are considered a European invention by some, it is argued that it was a madrassa op until the 1960's. However, madrassa is basically Arabic for place of study, which this mosque was since the eleventh century or earlier. It was in any case a place of study before the foundation of the university of Bologna.

[–] oce@jlai.lu 12 points 1 day ago (4 children)

This Wikipedia page agrees with this comment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation. It lists University of Bologna as the oldest one in continuous operation from 1180–1190.

I mean…. It does and it doesn’t. Yes, al-Qarawiyyin was founded as a mosque. Yes, it became a “university” within the last 100 years. But there was a looong span of time between where it was an institution of higher learning not formally classified as a “university”

Paragraph 4 of the article you linked specifically notes that such institutions with mixed provenance were omitted from the list.

Ancient higher-learning institutions, such as those of … the Islamic world, are not included in this list owing to their cultural, historical, structural and legal differences from the medieval European university… These include the University of al-Qarawiyyin… founded as mosques in 859… These developed associated madrasas… by 1129 for al-Qarawiyyin…

Basically it is the oldest educational institution that is currently a university, as opposed to the institution having operated under the university model for the longest time.

[–] drolex@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 day ago

That's where the top boffins of the time invented spaghetti with tomato sauce, too!

[–] Chee_Koala@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Not long after hops became really popular as a beer ingredients. Coincidence?

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Al-Qarawiyyin is recognized by UNESCO and Guinness as the world's oldest continually running institution of higher learning.

[–] ricdeh@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago (5 children)

The oldest continuously operating university is in Bologna. The one that the post is about was actually a mosque and did not become a university until less than a century ago.

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Al-Qarawiyyin is recognized by UNESCO and Guinness as the world's oldest continually running institution of higher learning.

We can apply a purity test here (ie. what qualifies as a university) but.. why except for pedantry? No matter how you frame it, it doesn't take away from the scale or impact of the institution itself.

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We can apply a purity test here (ie. what qualifies as a university) but.. why except for pedantry?

Well, because it's only true for a veeeeeery narrow definition of "university". If you include other schools, there are British ones that predate it by three centuries. If you don't require current operation in the same building, or allow name changes, there are ancient Greek ones that predate it by more than a millenium.

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I appreciate your examples but there must be more to the story since, as another example, it is a Buddhist monastery in India that is often regarded are the world's oldest residential university. Perhaps dormitory style living was not part of the ancient European model. I also wonder why Western founded institutions like UNESCO and Guinness would give this designation to al-Qarawiyyin when they would likely be more familiar with the examples (albeit nonspecific) you've listed.

[–] Hlodwig@lemmy.world -3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If you want to go that way, a lot of places could qualify as oldest university, some christian monasteries way older than al-qarawiyyin are still inactivities and the main focus of monasteries is to learn and apply "god" teachings...

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I wonder why UNESCO and Guinness do not recognize those Christian monasteries then. Perhaps they did not confer degrees or certificates of scholarly competence (ijazahs) the way that al-Qarawiyyin did.

[–] Hlodwig@lemmy.world -5 points 1 day ago

My nephews gets stars stickers when he successfully learn something, does it qualify as degrees and its school qualify for university?

UNESCO can say whatever they want, it never have been a university in the sense that 90% of the population would not identify it as a university... An ersatz of university? Yeah sure if it make you feel better...

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It was common for religious institutions to also be places of higher learning during this era.

The Nalanda Mahavihara (Buddhist grand monastery) is regarded as world's oldest residential university. It is in present day India, though not operating today. Scholars such as Xuanzang (known as Mokṣadeva in Sanskrit) travelled from China (in his case Luoyang) to Nalanda for his studies and returned with thousands of sutras which were then translated. It was knowledge transfer through such universities during the Tang dynasty that brought the number system we use today (originally described in the Bakhshali manuscripts and further refined by Aryabhata and Bhramagupta) to China.

[–] Voxel@programming.dev 4 points 1 day ago

A lot of higheducation place were also a religious place. For a lot of time education was't just seen as positive science also education of soul.

[–] Slovene@feddit.nl 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Are you saying the post is baloney ? 😁

[–] HylicManoeuvre@mander.xyz 1 points 16 hours ago

I see what you did there

[–] guy@piefed.social 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

She looks very fresh for a millenarian.

[–] lauha@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Damn millenials. Founding universities and doing other woke shit.

[–] loldog191@lemmy.ca 7 points 15 hours ago

WOW, why does this comment section have so much misogyny and Islamophobia? Are people seriously only looking at the Wikipedia article then stopping once their prejudices are confirmed?

How can you seriously claim that Fatima al-Fihri didn't exist because the Rawd al-Qirtas was written centuries afterwards so it's untrustworthy? And that's according to "some historians" over a millenia later? Like, check the references, one is just a french guy saying in his opinion it's too much of a coincidence that the 2 most famous mosques of Fez were built at the same time by 2 sisters??

Tout au plus pourrait-on dire que le second, avec son parallélisme si parfait entre les deux sœurs et les deux mosquées, paraît trop beau pour être vrai.》 Le Tourneau, Roger (1949)

There are also people claiming it was just a mosque and not a learning institution...

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/2662/fatima-al-fihri-and-al-qarawiyyin-university/

-Most historians agree that Al-Qarawiyyin was the world’s first-degree granting institution, as well as a leading centre of scientific debate and scholarship that is a university. It set the standard that would become the reference point for institutions of higher learning the world over, drawing visitors, students and lecturers from all over the world.

The university's curriculum included but was not limited to Quranic exegesis (tafsir), Islamic jurisprudence, algebra, astronomy, botany, cartography and geography, grammar, history, literature, logic, mathematics, medicine, philosophy, physics and a host of foreign languages including Greek and Latin. Notably, the mosque complex also thrived as a spiritual centre where Islamic mysticism (Sufism) and gnosis (irfan) thrived.

Al-Qarawiyyin’s famous library, which scholars came from around the world to consult, also suffered neglect resulting in a large portion of the collection being lost.

In 2012, the Al-Qarawiyyin Library was rehabilitated and curated by well-known Moroccan architect Aziza Chaouni who discovered Fatima al-Fihri’s own manuscript collections as well as a copy of her diploma from Al-Qarawiyyin in fiqh and mathematics. Since the completion of renovations, the library has been open to the public and includes “exhibition room for manuscripts, a small museum to showcase the history of the Qarawiyine complex, a laboratory for the treatment of old books, and a cafe.” (azizachaouniprojects.com).

I searched for a while to find a photograph of her diplomas on display, but couldn't find any; if anyone else can find them, share them here! I did find pics of the first medical diploma issued though! Take a wild guess where it was issued from?

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2020/02/73474/al-qarawiyyin-university-in-fez-worlds-1st-institution-to-issue-medicine-degree/

collapsed inline mediaAl-Qarawiyyin First Medical Diploma

The university opened in 859, issued a medical bachelor’s degree in 1207AD to a Moroccan doctor Abdellah Bensaleh El-Koutami, who practiced medicine, pharmacy, and veterinary science. 

Like... c'mon. This place is truly deserving of so much respect and honour. This is such a stunningly beautiful site with so much rich historical significance, and it's unbelievable that there are comments diminishing that and lying about "the truth". I'll finish off with words from an article about the library's renovations from 2016:

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/11/104978/built-by-a-woman-restored-by-a-woman-qarawiyyin-symbol-of-female-endeavor/

Although the library was opened to the public in 839AD, a strict policy had been put in place, which restricted access to scholars only. Aziza, much like Fatima, wanted the library to be open to all.

After much battle, unfortunately made harder purely because of the fact that she is a woman, the Fez-born architect fought tirelessly and eventually was successful in her struggle. The re-launch of the library in January will see the library open its doors to everyone.

Following three years of restructuring, the library will open in January to the public for the first time in more than 600 years.

[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Really what this points out to me is there’s no point in caring when there are squabbles about the oldest [thing all people do]. I guess it helps teach people that the education they received growing up was inherently biased towards their local culture, and that’s OK as long as you recognize it.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago

It's just white washing history.

There has been a major propaganda campaing to claim thay Islam centers were there to bring light to people through education when, no fucking shit sherlock - everything else was punishable by death by the cut weeny cult.

[–] Shamber@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Ahhhh yes...the Wikipedia quoting discussion, and let's slip a bit of bigotry here , and nationalisme over here and you have thriving comment section, but again nothing new here

[–] hakase@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yup, never let a pesky thing like the truth get in the way of a good story, especially when you have a vested ideological interest in it.

[–] WinGirl99@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Plato found it

[–] HugeNerd@lemmy.ca 0 points 15 hours ago

Well, to be fair, it wasn't the world's oldest university when she built it.

[–] MissJinx@lemmy.world -1 points 23 hours ago

As a woman I always want to comment but then I remember that men tricked the world into.calling people pro womens rights "islamophobes" and ban them from.opinion.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world -3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Ah yes Morocco - the 137th out of 148 countries when it comes to women rights.

If anything this "university" had an inverse effect this meme implies.

[–] codemankey@programming.dev 8 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Both things can be true at the same time.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 0 points 10 hours ago

Big doubt on the likelihood on that

[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world -4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

But how is that possible since Islam is meant to be inherently misogynistic, and each Quran comes with women oppression emitters?

Are you telling me that modern people are misinterpreting scripture in order to screw over women? I'm shocked, the king of Saudi Arabia would never behave like that.

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

No, this story is simply not true.