If you can attract researchers by doing absolutely nothing, someone else fucked up.
The US is at war with education and academia in general, anywhere that isn't is gonna be attractive to researchers.
I almost expect USA refugees in Canada. Certainly, non-WASP, non-cis people could claim being in danger at home.
this post was submitted on 27 Mar 2025
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anywhere that isn't is gonna be attractive to researchers.
To an extent yes, but with far-right politics and general anti-immigration sentiment on the rise immigrating to Germany only to potentially find more of the same five years later isn't an attractive prospect. I as one such future engineer/researcher definitely know Germany isn't high on my list of places I want to immigrate to.
Yea I wasn't thinking of Germany so much as.. anywhere else than the US in general.
What's WASP
White Anglo Saxon Protestant
Biggest issue is that german academia is a big clown show even for german natives. There are too few permanent jobs, everything is payed badly and people are already fighting over each position. There is no way that germany can absorb a huge amount of US researchers without increasing spending for universities. Which we won't do.
That is way Zurich is called the City that benefits the most of this tragedy. There are tons of German scientists and Ph.D. students at the prestigious ETH.
The truth is that academia in Germany is mostly precarious. There just aren't enough jobs and with the Schuldenbremse many fundings have been cancelled. A permanent position is hard to get and doesn't pay very well. What's more likely to happen is that you will be stuck in a circle of non-permanent contracts including regular relocation until you might get your chance (or not).
Good points.
The video is interesting because the interviewer asks what has to be done to make Germany attractive to US researchers. The answer kind of avoids the question IMO, but it does show that Germany probably isn't the place for US researchers. That does give other EU countries the opportunity to snag the talent though. Given the Germans voted in nazis into their parliament, the damage to their image and attractiveness could be substantial.
In my view not speaking English is the biggest disadvantage of many European countries:
People from other countries will have a substantially easier way of integrating into society in the UK, Canada etc. because there they won't have to choose between having to learn a new language or have difficulties finding jobs and navigating everyday life (like joining a sports club etc. ). Here in Germany the trend goes definitely towards more English speaking companies, projects and hobby groups but obviously English speaking countries will always have a substantial lead in that. Honestly if I thought about emigrating, my first thoughts would also be about some English speaking countries. So you will get by in Germany with English but it's highly desirable to learn German in the long run (which isn't only negative as learning other languages is good for ones brain, widens the horizon and is kinda cool).
That being said (take it with a grain of salt as I might be biased) the European Union and Germany still are good options because of
- the amazing travel opportunities (Italian beaches, hiking in the Alps, millennia old cities like Rome, Paris and Prague etc.) just around the corner
- attractive citizenship path (in Germany maximum five years)
- relative democratic stability (in Germany: the AfD "only" has 20% voters with the remaining 80% strongly against cooperation and in big cities where most foreigners live it's substantially lower - moving into another European country is in the worst case also with hurdles)
- solid economy (in the past two years stagnating but for example the new infrastructure bill will change that probably)
- with for example the Max-Planck-Gesellschaft and the Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft Germany has some prestigious and productive research institutions
- ...
On a more meta level non-English speaking countries might also have a disadvantage due to not even being considered in the first place because they are less prominent in the English speaking media.
Edit: Btw. the wages and working conditions in Germany in public research aren't very high but I assume that applies worldwide to research, which isn't funded by a company. Edit2: The first points probably relate less to researchers than to other professionals as for scientific researchers it's more common to work in another country and to move on after some years (at least that's my perception as a non-expert).
The germany subreddit was brutal and said unless you live in Berlin or work for an english speaking company you will have a bad time. Perhaps it has changed more in the last years and it might be easier to get in settled without german. Its famously a tough language to learn. It is also not a 'digital' country which may put people off.
Have they changen from 8 years to 5 for all? And do they still require non-EU people to give up their other citizenship if they want German citizenships?
Berlin has an IT english speaking expat bubble. However when you look at the share of Americans in Germany on a county or city level, Berlin has a lot, but it certainly is not alone. Military bases are also a thing, but pretty much only in the south.
Have they changen from 8 years to 5 for all? And do they still require non-EU people to give up their other citizenship if they want German citizenships?
Yes it was changed relativly recently.
The 8 to 5 years is a good change.
Giving up your other citizenship (if you're not an EU/EEA country) is a really tough decision to take.
Why is it a tough decision? European passports are very "strong". They let you travel most of the world with little to no restrictions.
Is that a legitimate question?
You are being asked to give up your nationality which until that point has been your identity and how you interact with the world.
One of the first questions you get asked is "where are you from", and if you can't pass for looking and sounding like a German native then the next question is "where are you really from?".
It sounds quite arrogant and insincere of you to say and hope that this is not a common thought.
Is that a serious response?
You're assuming everybody thinks the same way as you do and can't imagine diverse thought. It sounds like you're quite arrogant, stuck in your ways, and easily offended by a harmless question and taking it as a personal attack.
Maybe you should take a second to consider that not the entire world has given in to US propaganda on identity politics and that people can be any nationality regardless of what they look. It shows your true colours.
Lmao
Travel, but not settle or work. For Americans going back to the US for better salaries is quite realistic. For poorer countries retiring in your country of origin is very attractive.
Good points. I do wish we lived in a world without passports, but alas, we're still dumb, territorial animals. It might take another thousand years to let go of that.
Revenge for all the runaway scientists we gained during their Nazi run
Operation Clippy.
As a masters candidate I am actively looking for options in Europe in the finance field, and Germany would be my prefered country to live in. But it's hard for them to compete with ETH Zurich and Ecole Polytechnique which both have better prestige, student reviews and are close by, not even mentioning Imperial and Oxford which are great too. I was looking into TU Munich and got scared by all the negativity from students in the Reddit sub
If you have the credentials to go for the prestigious Unis and other Unis don't stick out in your specific field for particular excellence, i would not recommend going to Germany. German Universities are good overall. They provide access to higher education to a relatively large group of people. In some fields certain Unis are absolutely excellent and thus have a great reputation in that field. But the Unis are not "household names" by themselves.
If you want to go into a direction that values prestige, go for that. If you want to make use of particular excellence in your particular field, you can find something in Germany. If you want to go for living in Germany or for enjoying student life in Germany, then i strongly advise against that.
Germany is becoming increasingly racist and reactionary. The federal parliament passed a non binding but kind of binding resolution that researchers should be surveilled by the interior intelligence and get their funding revoked if they are not "without a doubt not antisemitic", aka if they have said anything that was critical of Israel. Also questions of scientific discourse such as the definition of antisemitism should not be left to scientific discourse, but rather decided politically through legislation, like the resolution enforcing the IHRA definition of antisemitism. Note that this resolution had full support from the fascists of the AfD to the former progressive parties now center-right Green and Social Democrats. Only the Left party abstained from the vote and a fringe social-but-nationalist-pro Putin party opposed it.
I appreciate your input, but honestly, coming from Brazil, even with those cons I can't help but wish those were my problems...
If you look Latino, people will probably think you are Turkish or Arab and treat you like that. While racist violence is on the rise it is still less prevalent than the general violence in Brazil, but the trend is not going well. If you can, i recommend going to some other EU country where this is less of a problem.
Fair enough. I was considering France and England, too. What are your thoughts on those?
For France racist violence against Arabs is quite high from what i know, but given the proximity to Spain i would assume that they are a bit more able to tell apart Iberians and Latinos from Arabs. However French cops are notorious for beating up racialized people as a weekend sport.
The UK seems to be more diverse and have long established immigrant communities, mainly from the former British colonies. From what i understood both in terms of safety nets and in terms of social acceptance of people "looking brown" the UK is somewhat ahead relative to many mainland EU countries.
I have only briefly spent time in France however and i have yet to visit the UK, so these can only be a idea of what to look for. On another note. You should also consider the weather, especially sunshine in winter. In Germany Berlin is notorious for having an almost uninterrupted cloud-cover during November and December and many people with a healthier skin color suffer strongly from seasonal depression.
You are very welcome at KIT(Karlsruhe). Our Lemmy Community is still pretty small: https://feddit.org/c/kait@feddit.org
In my opinion it should be doable with some effort to have the bureaucratic processes in English and not only German, similar to how the Netherlands does it. Same thing about the work requirements. Newcomers should be able to work in English for the first 5 to 10 years until they are integrated into the society.
Given how anti-immigration the Germans are, I wonder if the researchers will make it 5 years, but it could be enough to bridge the US presidency. Other countries would probably also be very happy to accommodate the brain drain and also be friendlier.
Ehhhβ¦. They are already overwhelmed in German, how do you imagine it working in English? I went to the immigration office in my city once, they barely spoke English, itβs really sad. If they genuinely want to attract scientists/experts, they need to establish a dedicated office for that purpose, or perhaps an office at the EU level. How does this process work in the Netherlands?
How does this process work in the Netherlands?
I'd imagine in the Netherlands they can just... speak English.
And probably not use fax to deal with government queries :P
For lecturers I think it is common to have some condition like "must learn the language in X years of employment". Then in germany I know the uni sometimes provide a reference copy in english of all the hiring documents, like contracts. That is, an english translation that is not legally binding, but still a proper traslation. I did not see the same in france nor italy.
Operation reverse Papierclip
You guys have remote work there, right? Which is perfect for me!
Send me the creds and . . . (hacker voice:) I'm in.
I think Germany is probably one of the least open countries to remote work. As a reminder, they still use fax for communication with government bodies. Friends of mine have had interviews for job in Germany that were considered "remote" but it turned out they were actually office jobs. They do not see that as lying because you can commute from far away - in the train system that is always late.
Remote work is probably more accepted in countries with good, fast internet and progressive values like Denmark, Sweden, and The Netherlands. Traditionalist countries like Germany are probably a little too stuck in their ways.
Is it really that bad? Usually Germany is quite similar to Austria and in Austria many companies offer remote work
Sure. Germany could easily steal me away.