this post was submitted on 24 Jul 2025
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The proposed update to Switzerland’s Ordinance on the Surveillance of Postal and Telecommunications Traffic (VÜPF: Verordnung über die Überwachung des Post- und Fernmeldeverkehrs) represents a significant expansion of state surveillance powers, worse than the surveillance powers of the USA. If enacted, it would have serious consequences for encrypted services such as Threema, an encrypted WhatsApp alternative and Proton Mail as well as VPN providers based in Switzerland.

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[–] bort@piefed.world 80 points 2 days ago (1 children)

This would be catastrophic to Proton AG

[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 99 points 2 days ago (2 children)

In their AI announcement yesterday they mentioned that they are moving to the EU because of legal protections.

[–] artyom@piefed.social 11 points 2 days ago (8 children)

The region that repeatedly insists on backdoors in any encrypted communications?

[–] yistdaj@pawb.social 8 points 2 days ago

As much as it's dumb, many other places (such as Australia, where I live) are similar at this point.

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[–] LodeMike@lemmy.today 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 35 points 2 days ago (2 children)

https://proton.me/blog/lumo-ai

Read the Building EuroStack for the Future section

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[–] percent@infosec.pub 80 points 3 days ago (2 children)

This is the first thing I've ever disliked about Switzerland (not that I know a lot about the country).

[–] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 187 points 3 days ago (11 children)

You've not heard of shady banking, Nazi gold, reluctance to stop dealing with Russia, women not being able to vote until the 70s, and Nestle?

Switzerland gets aggressively simped for online, and there's certainly some nice things about them, but there's also some pretty awful things.

[–] Klear@lemmy.world 94 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Those are all very bad, but on the other hand their flag is a big plus.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 46 points 2 days ago

It's also a big red flag.

[–] lagoon8622@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

But on the minus side, it's a cross

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[–] Jason2357@lemmy.ca 22 points 2 days ago

Yeah, the whole "private banking" history thing the EFF seems to lionize in the article was 100% just for serving lucrative international robber barrons and other criminals. It was never about protecting regular citizens privacy.

[–] Birch@sh.itjust.works 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Hold up now! I'll have you know in some parts of the country women couldn't vote until the 90s! Also unmarried cohabitation was illegal in some cantons until the 80s and paternity leave as a concept only exists in Switzerland since the 00s.

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[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 11 points 2 days ago

I think someone like you, Grand Nagus, would admire the Swiss over most of that ;)

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago

Strong means attractive. Not getting pummeled in WWII and making some profits, being complicit in some crimes (turning back Jews), and in general being on top for many decades make you look strong.

[–] percent@infosec.pub 7 points 2 days ago (4 children)

I meant current times, not in the past. Sorry, I assumed that would be obvious. There are also some things I like about Germany, though they have a pretty terrible past.

[–] HereIAm@lemmy.world 34 points 2 days ago

The Nazi gold is still very much a thing. And the descendants of Jewish people who died in concentration camps are often unsuccessful in reclaiming any wealth that was stored in Swiss banks, because they don't have death certificates and what not. Switzerland is incredibly stubborn and selfish when it comes to anything that would tarnish their neutral stance in banking and politics.

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[–] SonOfAntenora@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

My theory is that if you're cute you're socially protected and the same applies to states and countries. Switzerland is quite the nice place and there are cultural hubs of historical importance, so it has the cute look now doesn't it.

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[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 9 points 2 days ago

For a more extreme example, look to the Principality of Monaco. Being so much smaller, it can be much more extreme.

[–] SunshineJogger@feddit.org 60 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Why is this world and timeline so hell bent on recreating dystopian sci fi novels from the 80s?

[–] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 27 points 1 day ago (1 children)

two factors:

  1. those novels were warnings about the path we were on
  2. dorkasses like musk and altman missed the allegorical point
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Because they were about late state capitalism.

[–] Bwaz@lemmy.world 50 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Ah, yes. The country that formerly let you have anonymous secret bank accounts.

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 18 points 2 days ago (3 children)

You account is anonymous only if you have over a billion.

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[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 39 points 3 days ago (4 children)

No fucking way, but mah direct democracy ...

So. Switzerland doesn't really have fully direct democracy in the necessary sense. It's still an old nation-state with laws made in the olden day when you had to compromise. There are many cases where the "direct" part is optional and requires interested people to assemble signatures yadda-yadda. Not good enough to counter a campaign for legal change with a goal. That aside, its system encourages it to have politicians as a thing. Which means that for some issues it will always drift shitward.

It also has separation of 3 kinds of government by degree of locality, but not separation of the "an entity ensuring food safety can't regulate telecommunications" or "an entity regulating police labor safety can't regulate riot police acceptable action" kinds.

(Which is why I usually refer to my preference for a kind of "direct democracy" as a revised one-level Soviet system with mandatory rotation, plenty of places and sortition to state worker roles, despite that not having very good connotations.)

[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 22 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

This is not law yet. The Federal Council (the executive) has started a consultation process at the beginning of the year which ended in May. They are now looking at all the feedback that came in, that was - unsurprisingly - exclusively negative from all sides. If the responsible minister wants to go ahead with it, it goes to the Federal Council for a vote. If they approve it, this would be a decree to change an existing decree and that would come into effect next year or the year after.

And this is where direct democracy comes in: If this is the case anyone can start getting signatures for a public initiative which would change the constitution to prohibit such practices. In fact anyone can start doing that now. If it succeeds, then it'll come to a popular vote. Threema (a secure chat provider) has already announced that they would do that and I'm sure that they wouldn't be the only ones to band together in this.

The process might take long, but this is in no way "not good enough to counter a campaign for legal change with a goal" and in fact has happened multiple times in the past. Hence why Switzerland has a direct vote on issues every few months because of something called "Referendum", whereby a popular vote can be forced on an issue passing through parliament. I might have my criticisms of the political system, but this ain't it.

its system encourages it to have politicians as a thing

Well yes, there is some level of representation, so over 8 million people don't have to decide every little detail on 1000s of changes of law. The system is built upon a "milita" system. I.e. politicians usually have a job. So people have the possibility to vote in experts or their vicinity and know that they won't solely be career politicians. Unfortunately the laws around financing and propaganda are rather lax, giving an advantage to the rich, which leads to an over-representation of the capitalist class with occupations such as lawyers and business-owners and a clear under-representation of classical working-class jobs such as craftspeople or office workers. This is amendable though to correct the mismatch, if people realize their class interest and don't fall for the same right-wing propaganda of a party whose playbook has been inspired by the US GOP for decades and who is inspiring Germany's AfD now.

The main downside of the system imo has to do with people with no knowledge on an issue having to weigh in on them and therefore how powerful propaganda campaigns can be, which means that money buys power, as in every other existing so-called democracy - direct or not. Especially with how money shifts power away from the populace, this is inherent to capitalistic systems and it would be on the populace to protect itself from it. With enough propaganda though, people keep voting for more power of capital unbeknownst to them or not, just as they might vote against their interests on other things. The fact that you have to convince so many people, who hopefully do have some degree of education, makes it a lot harder though, for big capitalists to reach their goals, compared to less direct systems. And I know of several examples, how such a vote did not go in favor of big capital. What usually makes the difference is whether they succeed in portraying their advantage as the advantage of all.

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[–] ruuster13@lemmy.zip 22 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Democracy is an infant still learning to walk. You plug the holes and add new institutions for oversight. You don't shoot the damn baby and start over because you know how you'd force everyone to do it.

Kowloon wasn't built in a day.

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[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 9 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

So. Switzerland doesn't really have fully direct democracy in the necessary sense.

Yes, it's half-direct, who said otherwise? Fully direct on a Nation state level would maybe be possible now with the Internet.
But we can still overrule them, while germans get tired of their politicians lying on elections and doing what they want. Doesn't mean they don't try here.

But yeah, this system has it's weaknesses with complicated or emotional topics. But then again, we are all humans.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

Fully direct on a Nation state level would maybe be possible now with the Internet.

That's my point. It might seem dangerous to rely on the Internet for such basic matters, but it's already being used to great effect to undermine all democracies. So there's no choice, it's like an arms race. (Still, probably for elections it'd make sense to have a countrywide parallel intranet, so that someone's error in setting up a BGP router wouldn't disrupt it.).

But yeah, this system has it’s weaknesses with complicated or emotional topics. But then again, we are all humans.

That's the other side of the problem - modern easiness of propaganda.

OK, I live in Russia, just rather sad to see how many other countries are slowly drifting in the same regrettable unsavory direction.

[–] CHKMRK@programming.dev 5 points 2 days ago (2 children)

It's still an old nation-state with laws made in the olden day when you had to compromise.

What democracy does not rely on compromise?

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago

None. I'm using "compromise" here in the sense of compromising between democracy and elites, with the world order normal 200 years ago. Today those compromises don't work because of technological progress and different makeup of societies.

Just like those in the USA.

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[–] SabinStargem@lemmy.today 33 points 2 days ago

Considering that we might have a World War III or 2nd American Civil War in a decade or two, it would be foolish of Switzerland to not permit encrypted VPN. A stable neutrality is very profitable in a world of uncertainty.

[–] Squizzy@lemmy.world 27 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Isnt Switzerland the country that struggled with their covid response because of the direct democracy requirements lacking provisions for such changes...amazing they can figure everything out to hurt the public.

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[–] MITM0@lemmy.world 22 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] Tattorack@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Holy shit. An actual interrobang.

This is like finding a shiny.

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[–] lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 1 day ago

It was inevitable. What did you all expect from the country that hoarded all that nazi gold?

[–] Bubbey@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (2 children)

If I have to fucking switch mail hosts again... what the hell is the point in using proton for privacy and now I'm sure that's going to get ruined.

[–] frosch@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Wasn’t there an announcement from proton a few days back to possibly move their data Centers out of Switzerland because of this?

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[–] Kazel@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 3 days ago

Wenn die Schweiz dann ein Überwachungsstaat ist kann sie ja auch gleich in die EU eintreten

[–] _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 day ago

Where’s that dude who was saying Proton was enabling terrorism for threatening to leave the country?

[–] bigFab@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

“In a democracy, the right way is to argue, not threaten to leave.” Socialist member of parliament said.

Does this man understand the very first day this law would approve Proton is dead? Do politicians understand privacy at all?

switzerland was never a utopia for anybody except corporations, billionaires, and nazis. their "neutrality" was nothing more than an excuse for unregulated capitalism.

[–] BuboScandiacus@mander.xyz 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Note that this is written by Tuta, Protonmails main concurrent

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[–] philpo@feddit.org 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Switzerland never had solid privacy laws - and is known for intelligence service overreach for decades.

They had a Stasi like system of "who to imprison" when "the time comes".

They listen to all IP traffic in and out the country - which is concerning in times of traffic pattern analysis. And they are known for their close cooperation with US intelligence services.

Protons (and Threemas) claim of "soo good swiss privacy laws" is nothing more than swiss-washing. And they know it.

Proton has already given away data of its customers (climate activists) to the swiss authorities. And only talked about it when the press got onto it.

[–] SonOfAntenora@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

I know this and i know that political systems in Switzerland are really unique. I think this kind of thing can pass despite the robust involvement of the civil society, mostly because it's an update on a preexisting law. But this is something I can't tell as of now.

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