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One guy who's actively defying this orange turd and all the fucking tankies on here would rather shit on Gavin because he's not the perfect online liberal like they are.
You people are the fucking problem right now.
The American left is engaged in a slow and unconscious suicide. Meanwhile, conservatives are fucking evil as fuck.
He's thrown vulnerable people under the bus and has no principles other than what he thinks will help his career. Yeah, he's doing the right thing here, but let's not pretend he's good because he's doing the bare minimum
We can work with him while recognizing he's not a true ally
When someone is cooking a good meal, even if they are generally bad at cooking, shut up and let them cook.
Fucking this.
Furthermore, when people won't even cook at all (online leftists who do fucking nothing but complain), they have no space to complain when someone is doing any cooking.
Only the sith deal in absolutes. Idealism is for idealists, aka tools. We are flawed beings, living in a flawed world, we have to deal with flaws. Nothing and nobody will ever be perfect for anything and everyone, that’s not a good reason to let fascists have their way. We can work out the details after the revolution.
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These are just your ideals, dum dum.
How is that a false standard of beauty, perfection, or excellence?
Idealism uses a different definition for ideals than you are here, dum dum.
'The Left' isn't going to do shit in their 'revolution' except talk about it online.
They don't show up to anything.
Yeah, that’s why there are so many protests going on right now with people being arrested for confronting and resisting the current administration, because leftists never do anything, right?
Yeah I see tons of actual people protesting, not the terminally online Leftists here.
Regular people are fighting, not the tankies ;)
Tankies are not leftists, they’re authoritarian boot lickers, they just hate capitalism and love fascists and genocide.
They don't even hate capitalism, just USA.
i'm sick of protests. it's time to start actually fighting. with guns.
Exactly. I'm so tired of watching the left destroy themselves from the inside. Progress is slow. The right are clearly masters of playing the long game, they've been building to current events for decades. They're happy to take the 10% wins bit by bit. They're happy to make sacrifices for their progress.
Meanwhile the left demands nothing but perfection, and constantly cannibalises itself for not being perfect and revolutionising the world day 1.
You don't have to suddenly love the guy, rewrite history, or swear loyalty. You just have to know when someone's actually helping and not get in the way.
The right wins because they fight together. Business conservatives, evangelicals, fascists, libertarians. They might hate each other behind the scenes, but they march in line, and they'll eat burnt toast with a smile if it gets them closer to running the kitchen.
A rational and situational understanding of the situation gets a lot of spears thrown at you, a lot of people claim left or right, I think for the most part the ones demanding absolute perfection with no compromises really just want a war. We’re in a world of broken boy soldiers with no glory to kill or die for. We’d rather devolve.
The solution to the left cannibalizing itself isn't to ignore issue with people, it's to acknowledge those issues and seek out what we can work together on. Random online leftists aren't meaningfully getting in the way by criticizing him, I'd argue it's important so we keep in mind where he's an ally and where he's an enemy.
I'd argue random online leftists criticizing non perfection is exactly why Trump won.
This isn't to say we should turn a blind eye to or ignore the valid criticisms, and I get that people think that's exactly what you're saying if argue in this direction. It's just, wouldn't it be better if people were currently protesting and petitioning for Harris to do something about the issues they didn't like her stance on, rather than protesting essentially illegal deportations in their own country?
I feel like it's kinda missing the forest for the trees.
So, in a situation and conversation about him being an ally in the only substantial way he can be in this specific situation you’re going to get hung up idealism about a perfect elected leftist representative in a country that has never reflected those ideals?
Not when cooking that meal could let them become head chef.
Newsom has his eye on the presidency, and he could win it if he becomes defined by this and not all the terrible shit he's done.
At this point I’d take that as a win. Do you not understand the shit soup we are drowning in right now? Don’t let your idealism be a tool for the fascists.
Working together doesn't mean we have to pretend our allies have no issues.
Newsom doesn't meaningfully resist fascism and his brand of politics are a major part of why we're here. Yeah, I'll stand by him while he's fighting, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize him.
We can't afford to see him as a true ally. He will abandon everything we're fighting for if it benefits him. A tiny percent of leftists criticizing him online amongst themselves will have no impact on how successfully the fascists are able to seize control.
I'm out there alongside liberals who hate most of what I believe, we can be open about that while still working together. We have a common enemy that needs to be stopped.
It means working with people you don't like but it doesn't mean we have to pretend they're perfect, or even good.
If the conversation is about what they are doing to help, maybe don’t be a dick about it, there is a time and a place. Choose your battles.
imo an important part of discussing what someone is doing to help is discussing how much we can trust them and how they're capable of helping. That mecessitates discussing what they're bad at.
You're 100% right there's a time and a place. I think a discussion in a left-leaning place like Lemmy with essentially no impact on what action people take is an appropriate place.
Anytime you discuss a single action of a person, you must also bring up every bad thing they have done, or you are "covering" for them. There are a 1000 articles posted about Newsom that have comment sections that lay all that shit out, repeatedly. Everyone knows he is corrupt, and sadistically trying to make being homeless criminal, and more.
We aren't discussing that in this thread. At the moment we are specifically discussing him being the only congress member to be actively standing up to a far more corrupt president. Post one of the million articles about the awful shit Newsom has done, and then talk about it there.
In real life if you see people having a discussion about something, would you then butt in with something off topic, just because it relates to an aspect of their conversation?
In a post discussing how he is one of the few U.S. politicians making a substantial stand against the authoritarian regime with the legitimate threat of arrest while we stand on the cusp of civil war, I would respectfully and highly disagree.
Garbage analogy for a garbage argument.
Fuck you. Do better.
No. People pointing out corrupt politicians aren't the problem. Its those who cover for them and pretend like they are heros who are the problem.
What cover have I given anyone? I'm calling out all the couch potato leftists who couldn't even get off the fucking couch to vote against fascists because of their bullshit purity tests.
You're covering for a fascist right now.
Why should people vote for a genocide and reward it? If anything, making them lose despite the consequences is right thing because then youll send a message and democrats will finally learn to give ground if they want to win.
"Bullshit purity test"
Go F yourself for thinking that holding a stance against genocide is some "purity" test.
"I'd rather watch immigrants be rounded up and the genocide accelerate than compromise."
"I'd rather compromise on genocide and refugee abuse than abandon fascist politicians."
who gives a shit about genoicide? humans are garbage. let's all kill each other. the few that survive will build a better society. most people never learn anything unless they learn it the hard way.
the only things that matter to me is environmental reform, a return to science based decision making, and destroying capitalism.
People like you, are the reason we are stuck with fucking trump.
People like you are why we end up with the choices of genocide vs fascism in the first place
Hey, I don't want to assume; did you involve yourself in the last primary elections for the democratic party frontrunners? I don't have respect for people who protest voting AND don't even participate in primaries.
Hi, yes I do participate in all primaries and local elections. I also vote on measures whenever those pop up. I think all these are important.
To be productive, here is what I think we need to do:
There is probably a lot more that can be done, but this is probably a good start
I appreciate you not just assuming things btw, thank you
Ty for the response. Glad to see another actually doing groundwork. Love all three bulletpoints, though it is really dejecting so many states have banned the use of ranked choice voting. Been advocating for that system for over a decade, myself.
Edit: oh, forgot to mention that it's easy for the internet to assign blame to those that protested voting the last election cycle, but that's only because they view people that voted FOR Trump as a lost cause already. I'm not willing to stop having serious conversations with those people, and more personal outreach would be my only bulletpoint to add.
The acceptance of liberal fascism is how we got here. It's not how we get out.
Liberal fascism doesn't fucking exist. Fascism is a right wing ideology you nutter.
This is literally authoritarian rhetoric.
No, the "well they're both corrupt/bad so fuck it" without acknowledging that bad/corrupt is a scale not a binary is how we got here.