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this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2025
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So, "perfect representation" is when one side wins that does not represent 40% of the votes?
When there's just two "teams", yeah. What's more fair than majority rule in that situation?
Maybe proportional representation instead of winner takes it all?
For district seats, that is proportional representation. It doesnt say it is winner take all. When it says that blue or red wins, it is just saying that they won the majority, and have dominate power over whatever government body they represent.
I just took the graphic literally without trying to guess which body (presumably in the US) this might represent.
If I need more information to understand the implication of this graphic than it imparts on me, then it's not very informative.
At no point does it imply proportional representation or that blue has a majority in some form of parliament.
So if blue just "wins" then red isn't represented at all. And I'm pretty sure there are election systems like this, including the US presidential election, or am I mistaken there?
What do you think "districts" means? Each district gets represention for the whole body, whatever body that may be. If you need that explained to you, okay, but don't then lecture others on minutae of semantics when you arent familiar with what the word "district" entails.
And the U.S. President is not elected like this, no. There is no districting involved in US Presidential elections, at least not currently and not directly. It is far stupider than that, unfortunately. Each state has so many districts on the federal level based on population of the whole state (minimum 1), and each district gets a federal representative in the US House of Representatives wing of congress. Each state also gets 2 and only 2 Senate seats regardless of population in that wing of congress. The Presidency is actually determined by the votes of Electors in the Electoral College. Each state gets as many Electors as they have seats in both the Senate and House, and it has nothing to do with how the districts in that state are subdivided or what party their Representatives are from.
Now, each state gets to determine for itself how they run their elections, how they assign their Electors, and even whether their electors are required to vote the same way as their state, so things can be pretty complicated. In many states, it is winner take all for that state's Electors, with the winner being the one with the plurality of votes in a FPTP election, which is dumb as fuck. Some others assign their Electors proportionally. There is even a slowly growing coalition of states that, once they reach a plurality of Electors in the coalition, have agreed to no longer assign their Electors on a state by state basis, but on the national popular vote instead. Again, within each of these states, rules differ on the relative power of the Electors themselves to vote according to their own desires even if that goes against the state's popular vote. They could, also, if they wished, leave each House-tied Elector up to each individual district, or just decided the Electors without considering or even having a democratic vote at all, neither or which currently happens, though. It's a giant fucking mess, it leads many many people in hard red or blue states to just to just not bother as their vote will be overwhelmed anyway, which is why the Electoral College should just be eliminated and replaced with a national popular vote. But that is a whole other story.
A subsection of a larger unit, here the subsections of a rectangle. What does that have to do with me not guessing what the rectangle represents?
Ok, so there is an election system like the one I criticized in the US, just not in every state.
Would you then say, that this is better than "winner takes all" and that "blue wins" is not perfect?
No.... because in the example, it was NOT winner take all. Blue won the majority of districts. Red won the other districts. Nobody took all. I feel like you are trying really hard to misunderstand a VERY simple hypothetical example. Yes, winner take all states for electors is bullshit, but that is NOT what is happening in the example, for the love of god!
When there is one seat, two parties, and you're using First Past the Post voting (which is a terrible voting system that inevitably causes the two party divide), yes. They perfect out come is majority win. When distributing multiple district seats, proportional representation is the perfect outcome, which that also acheives.
So we can agree the system is inherently bad at representation?
Sounds more like that outcome is the "least bad" rather than "perfect".
First Past the Post is objectively a problem in general. However, if there are only two candidates, and thus only possible outcomes, with one possible seat, all forms of voting will be functionally identical to FPTP in result. So in this given example, "least bad" and "perfect" are synonymous.
Now if there was a third+ party or more candidates from the two parties, and alternative forms of voting, then things do get more complicated. But the point of the example is to show, in simplist terms, how districting works in an ideal world, and how Gerrymandering can warp the end results to give either the advantage.
Except that the lack of a third candidate is partially because of the FPTP system. It's a waste of time, money and energy to try to compete with the Dems and the Reps. In a ranked voting system, or even a two-round system like we have in France, I guarantee you you'd see more candidates, because people then wouldn't just "vote useful".
Right, that's what I said in my previous comment. Ranked Choice is an improvement, yes. Though, I think it still is too easy to push the winning vote to the more polar candidates. If the centrist doesn't rile up passionate supporters (because what centrist does), they are more likely to be dropped in the first round even though they were ranked 1 or 2 for nearly everyone. I prefer Approval voting as my ideal alternative. It does tend to push more toward center, but if the idea is true democratic representation, then that would be the natural result, right? But anything is better than FPTP.
So if improvements are possible then the current situation can by definition not be perfect, right?
As I said elsewhere, if there is only two parties/candidates running for each of these seats and the districts are divided this way then there is no functional difference between Ranked Choice, Approval, Proportional, or First Past The Post. The results would be 100% identical in any of those systems. In this specific situation, the result is "perfect", as it says. Under different circumstances, it would be less than perfect, but that is not how hypothetical work, my guy.
So, suppose these things were not immutable laws of nature, would a better representation the be possible?
If e.g. the candidates of our rectangle had 5 seats to compete for instead of one?
Your example is literally what is being illustrated. There is some disconnect you are suffering. There isn't only one seat they are competing for. There are 5 districts with 5 seats and depending on how you divide the districts, fairly or intentionally gerrymandered, you can get a fair outcome or outcomes that heavily favor one party. Even if they WERE competing for one seat, then blue winning that seat would still be the correct outcome in this case, so even if your misunderstanding the hypothetical were accurate, I dont get why you have a problem with the end result.
The graphic literally illustrates that one of two teams "wins". In the "perfect" case that is blue.
The disconnect being that the above example mentions nothing about the red districts getting anything.
That is an assumption you are making based on some real world system that is not depicted here.
My comment is based only on what the image shows. I understand that the real world may be different but the real world is not what I am commenting on.
I don't criticize the result. I just don't think it's perfect.
People here keep telling me the system is bad but it's the best we have.
If that is your definition of perfect that I suppose we just have a vastly different understanding of perfection.
They win majority of the district. Not all of the seats. I don't know why you're are being so obtuse about this. It's pretty apparent to everyone else. And it is exactly how districts in real life work
Yes, becuase the purpose of this info graphic is to show how Gerrymandering works in real life. Gerrymandering has nothing to do with taking individual seats. Ever. Period. It is about taking outweighed control of a multi-seat body. That is the ENTIRE point of gerrymandering, a subject that is not obscure in the slightest.
What then would be the "perfect" result between only two parties running, and 60% support going to the blue party? Whether for 1 seat or for 5 as IS SHOWN in this graphic?
I most certianly did not say that this is the best system we could have, but you confusion is because you are conflating vastly different things. When people are talking about different voting systems that would be better, that assumes that there is more than 2 choices in the matter. If there are only two, such as is in this example, the voting system resolves to being identical to First Past The Post, so it doesnt matter, FOR THIS ONE EXAMPLE. In real life, things are not that simple, but that doesnt matter when we are talking about a simplified hypothetical like this. That is the point.
Yes, by changing voting groups in such a way that one party achieves a maximum of individual "wins" to achieve an overall "win". That is all it shows, there are 50 people split into two colors, five districts and one winner. No seats anywhere.
Right, because it it the process of rearranging voting groups to affect the overall outcome and has nothing to do with what the winner gets.
in other words
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Ok please take a big red marker or a graphic tool of your choice And draw a circle where on the graphic it SHOWS that red gets anything, besides abstract districts.
If you could highlight the fabled seats, that would certainly convince me that they are shown somewhere.
Whether the districts impart any sort of political influence beyond the tally of which team gets to be the overall winner, depends on completely different factors not part of the graphic.
I am not conflating anything. I am deliberately ignoring anything not in the info-graphic that presumably wants to teach us something.
It only shows how different district shapes affect the outcome of which team "wins".
You are the one conflating the abstract presentation on this graphic with some specific real-life situation.
Districts each get a seat. That is the part you are not getting. That is what gerrymandering manipulates. You seem to think that the districts are voting blocks with equal say (1 vote each) in an election of a single seat (thus why you think Blue wins it all) but that is NOT how districting and gerrymandering works in the US (where the word comes from and the only place it is really used, btw). I dont know why you are quoting definitions at me like I dont understand the concept.
You specifically brought up that other people are saying that there are better systems, which is exactly what I was responding to and saying you were conflating with the "perfect" term used in the info graphic. So no, this is bull.
The abstract presentation in the graphic is a hypothetical that EXPLAINS the real-life situation. Gerrymandering is not a concept in a vacuum. It is a thing that happens and show a simplified version of it here demonstrates how manipulative it is in a digestible way. That is the point. It's not a mathematical or logical axiom that exists purely in and of itself. It is a pretend situation meant to parallel a real life one and demonstrate a form of political manipulation.
They do not in the example. The example only knows a single winner.
I think that blue wins because the example literally tells us that blue wins.
And if the infographic said "Gerrymandering as it specifically works in the US only" then that would be relevant.
But it only explains it a general abstract concept. One that can also occur outside the US. This general concept can also occur without US electoral districts that get some seats. It can occur in any voting situation where the overall population is divided into subgroups.
Yes, it explains one specific mechanism. Namely changing district shapes to affect the outcome. And the outcome in the example is one color winning.
I do not care how things are in real life, because my comment has nothing to do with the real life situation, only the one depicted here.
I don't understand it well, but I like your 2 round system. What are some typical flaws with it that might not be obvious? I'm also curious what is the best thing about it, in your opinion
It is better than FPTP, but not a great system either. The flaws are similar to FPTP: The final winner may not be the candidate that would be most approved by the pooulation.
The main arvantage of it is that you can go wilder during the first turn, and pick a small party that you truly support, in hope it passes to the second turn. That happens often enough. And if it doesn't, then you vote for the least bad candidate in the second turn/the closest candidate to what you want.
That's what I like about it that I thought it would solve for me. I don't think the person I've voted for, in any election I've ever voted for, has won my riding (Canada)
I often have to choose between who I want to represent me, and voting for the strategic choice so that the leader of the country isn't the worst choice