Chippys_mittens
Yeah, this one would run in circles. Good on ya though. Go argue with other posts I've made.
Its calm, morality is inherently subjective most of the time because it depends on each individuals value system. However, I believe some things are objectively morally wrong. You're driving down the street and see a random pedestrian, you stop, get out and shoot that pedestrian in the head, killing them. That is objectively morally wrong.
We mostly agree. I'd reiterate that I do think avoiding shameful discourse is paramount to finding common ground which is the position we seem to be stuck on. I'd also say again that ,yes, I think avoiding shame based dialoge is the most morally correct thing in instances like this. But I feel that is an objective fact and not a motivation for me personally. Its been a good discussion and I appreciate the things you've said and how they've challenged my ideas. I likely wont change my approach much, but, you've made the best case I've heard so far on this. I'm sure we'll be at odds again in another ask post, I look forward to future arguments haha.
I recognize you're particularly bothered by me implying you feel morally superior. I'll accept that you dont shame people to feel superior. I apologize for making that assumption. I was wrong.
Anyway, Yeah, I own his book and have listened to many of his appearances online. I don't see how I'm misconstruing or poorly applying his message. I believe that engaging with someone on a ideological level is important and the best option, I don't see shaming as an effective tool to do that. I'll be very clear though, the individual this all sparked from seems to be a troll wasting both our time, not an individual open to any type of real conversation.
Yes I believe it is objectively more helpful and therfore more morally correct to do so. So sure, you could say I feel morally superior by not utilizing shaming language in most cases. That feeling isn't the driver for my actions just a biproduct (blame being raised by social workers). You already stated you don't want to change minds and you don't want people like that on your side. So I don't see us finding a middle ground, but the conversation has been a good distraction.
I'm gonna look like a dick for bringing it up but its pertinent. I volunteer monthly in youth outreach and in my experience shaming holds no benefit. In fact shame is like a horrible cancer in that setting that stops people from getting the help they need.These are at risk teens to general criminality not white supremacist organizations. But if I were in a different area they very well might be at risk of getting scooped up by some neo nazi group. I wouldn't start discussions by shitting all over the only other people that have so far helped/listened to/brainwashed the kid. I'd discuss the reasoning and try to help them understand the pitfalls in extremist view points.
My stance is communication and empathy are the most important parts to ending hateful thought. This isnt just a thing I argue with about with people online. I wholeheartedly want us to heal and grow as a society, and I don't see shaming/name calling being part of that. But, its absolutely possible I'm wrong. I'm wrong about shit all the time.
Yeah, we have a fundamental disagreement in morals. Thats fine, I think its very rare for someone to be too far gone to retrieve. Trolls are trolls though so I wont pretend this person is changeable. Im just of the camp that people have shitty opinions due to all kinds of factors. The only thing that changes those opinions is open dialoge. Shaming doesn't help at anyone at any point, aside from the shamer who gets to feel morally superior. I wont pretend to know you or your story and it wouldnt really change how I'm approaching this discussion. As I've said in other comments, I try to frame my perspective of the issue around Daryl Davis's approach to engaging with hate.
You're never going to get someone to leave their side and come to yours with that mentality. Shaming them does nothing but make you feel superior. Use someone like Daryl Davis as an example.
I can't talk to them because all their comments were removed, not deleted by them, removed... This is also just a general thing for me not centered solely around this individual troll.
No.... how do you get that from what I've said. We should out talk them, the example post given is very easy to poke holes in. People can and do change their minds, but only when challenged. Giving up, slapping a label on and holding moral superiority just grows their side. While you get to feel good about calling them a nazi. Doesn't help anyone and just pushes them further down that hate filled mindset. You beat hate with compassion and conversation, not more hate. Look into the artist Daryl Davis, his ideology around the subject is how I frame mine.