Simplifying Complexity, One Answer at a Time!
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Propaganda works.
Arguments I hear are usually something along the lines of "it's going to destroy the economy", "it destroys jobs", "I'm rich and they'll tax me a lot" (said by people who aren't actually rich). Also, confusing social democracy (Germany, Nordic countries) with what the Soviet Union and China were doing.
Yeah, capitalism has conspired to make us believe, as a group, that resources are somehow incredibly limited while a small cabal of elites gobble up insane quantities of resources for themselves while depriving the majority of those same resources.
Pure altruistic socialism would evenly redivide those resources, giving to those who need what they need.
It is anathema to capitalism, but it is the only society that would actually work in a post-scarcity world, which we might actually be approaching, assuming that the capitalists don't destroy it first.
The world has had enough resources for post-scarcity for decades, if not centuries. Before, the problem was logistics, now it's will.
I think very few of the ruling elite would support a post scarcity world. Elon Musk keeps talking about it the most and he is one of the guys I trust the least to intentionally bring it about.
I think this is the biggest one. It's the word, but it doesn't matter which word is used. All the propaganda machines will fuck with it as quick as they can.
Also, confusing social democracy (Germany, Nordic countries) with what the Soviet Union and China were doing.
IMHO remnants from the cold war indoctrination.
Probably US-Americans confusing anything that's not predatory capitalism with Russia and China.
Confusing or deliberately conflating, depending on whether they're the fraudster or the mark.
Propaganda.
People don't know what socialism actually means because of propaganda...
you can ask someone who is against "socialism" whether they like it by talking about elements of it without explicitly mentioning the word "socialism" and they will probably agree with it.
The people who hate it are those who think themselves better than their peers. They think they deserve more than their peers, and that socialism transfers their superior effort to the benefit of their inferiors.
They see socialism not as everyone helping everyone, but as they, the successful being forced to support them, the lazy.
Yes. My one note would be that it may be more to the root of it to say that they see it as the good (anything they like) having to help the bad (anything else). These sorts almost always reduce down to good/bad, me/them, clean/dirty because they (like all of us in our own ways) simply desire understanding and the surety it provides. Framing things as 0/1 is much easier to understand than actually facing the grey of reality. It's easy to want easy. Not often good or helpful, but just so dang easy to abide by.
People don't really like change.
Think about free public libraries. They're fairly popular, and not controversial outside of fringe libertarian types and assholes. People like that you can borrow books and other media for free. Usually there's a bit of a backlash if there's a movement to shut down libraries or limit their services.
Imagine if free public libraries didn't exist, and someone tried to invent them today. People would be having screaming fits about communism. It's stealing from the authors. it's ruining publishing. We don't need tax dollars for this when we have amazon. Blah blah blah.
It's the same with other things we could socialize. health care is a privatized nightmare. If we somehow got a public option in, eventually people would start reflexively defending it.
So what I'm saying is many people don't really have a set of internally consistent beliefs. They just don't like change.
People often confuse socialism with communism. The confusion is deliberate by a lot of right wing propaganda. When talking about socialism with Americans, you have to explain to them that the fire department is an example of socialism. As are other public services, like roads, police, libraries, and some utilities.
Of course in America, some people think profit is more important, so they are doing everything they can to privatize services. For example, in Texas they are slowly killing public education, and toll roads have taken over normal highway construction.
As I mentioned, people are being conned and scared of the word so that they will elect people will be replacing what remains of public services with private ones.
There are exceptions even here in Texas. My city has no toll roads and has a publicly owned power company.
We don't have private power companies in this county. What are they gonna compete on? Price? They would buy the power from the public company. Service? The service is honestly good.
I dream of moving to a different. State but I thank my lucky stars I grew up in this city.
Socialism is great as a concept, basically means putting people before capital. Capitalism is the reverse. Even the staunchest capitalist countries practice socialism to some degree. Raw capitalism would be hell.
It’s the same with communism, where the workers were supposed to own the means of production, which means money wouldn’t gravitate around a few ones. Even the staunchest communist countries didn’t practice real communism, deforming it into feudalism.
TL;DR: Socialism is a great concept, just consider that everything we hear about it comes from a culture ruled by capitalists.
ELI5
People dislike socialism because they often feel like their hard work and effort does not get fairly rewarded. Why would you work your whole life away to become a doctor and save lives when someone else wastes their time lost in vice.
Well you're 5 you piece of shit and your efforts at not pissing the bed have been pretty minimal at best. But do you still eat? Do you have a roof and a bed to piss all over? Who cleans that mess every time? People hate socialism because it sucks to be the provider. It also sucks to suffer. And in life we often forget this. We forget it takes all of us. We forget what it is to be helpless. We forget those who provided for us. And we get angry when we have to provide for others when we feel so left out of the party.
In short dont forget. Don't forget what you have been given and don't forget to share. Dumb kids.
Because some of the worst dictators of all time said they were communist and socialist, despite dictatorship being fundamentally antithetical to both.
Then a bunch of idiots watched a dictatorship, the USSR, burn up their economy with a space and arms race, so now they think socialism kills economic progress. It wasn't that the USSR didn't invest properly in the populace, or infrastructure, or that they were fundamentally a kleptocracy with a massive military, it's that they called themselves socialist. That's what killed them.
It's mostly thanks to USA propaganda and the whole "Red Scare" that began in the 1950s
I mean doesn't it mean a system where the people take care of themselves and neighbors?
Not really, the system is supposed to be about a government and economy that cares about the well being of its people first, such that several wealth distribution methods would be applied to ensure minimal inequality.
The rich don't want equality. They need people to be suffering and in dire want, so they have exploitable people to profit from.
Asking this on Lemmy is like asking a priest "why do people hate the Church?"
Every answer is going to assume the system in question is the best and everyone is either benighted or misanthropic.
Yeah, a real failure of imagining what the socialism haters actually hate.
Points about propaganda are probably true, but none of them are very fleshed out or specific.
I think one of the reasons things are as bad as they are is almost no one engages with things with which they disagree. I'd be surprised if many folks on Lemmy had several good friends who voted (or would have) for trump.
In this case, how many folks have had a good honest conversation with someone whom they respect who also vehemently disagrees with them about socialism? Probably next to zero.
We instead substitute the worst takes from the "other" side and then generalize it about everyone with whom we disagree.
The vast majority of the hate for socialism is decades long propaganda and indoctrination, which is mostly false. Socialism is a threat to the wealthy, so they programmed people to hate it.
With socialism or socialism-like policies, the general population gets more, at the expense of the wealthy elites who would get less. The wealthy control or lobby or have a say in our education system, media, entertainment, etc.
Actual five year old explanation:
Some people, who bake a birthday cake with their mom and dad, want the entire cake for themselves. If mom or dad take a piece anyway, they think that's not "sharing" but "stealing". Even though mom and dad helped bake the cake too. They think cake being taken from them is socialism.
long form:
So when someone says "that's socialism", they fear that they will be robbed or killed or at least threatened. And to be fair, the thought of being robbed or harmed is scary.
Decades of fox news propaganda, that's all. They tapped into the cold war talking points when it came to anything Obama campaigned on.
Some of these idiots are rooting for Russia in Ukraine, and are vehemently opposed to socialism. That only squares with propaganda.
Well, over here hard-line socialism is tied directly to Soviet attempts of taking away our independence through military force after us being occupied for well over a thousand years.
So yeah, a hard sell. But we have softer socialist policies these days, but I don't see a shift towards a fully socialist system.
Only thing I have against it is the air-headed, simple-minded take of most on lemmy. I've asked a dozen times how socialism stops money from funneling to the top and into the hands of a few. Never once got an answer. Look in this thread right now! There's not one real definition, just the usual capitalism bad, socialism good, take.
Best government and economic system I've seen in human history is a capitalist economic model with serious guard rails and "socialism" for the government. I put socialism in quotes because the word means to lemmings whatever they want it to mean, so the term is wishy washy.
I’ve asked a dozen times how socialism stops money from funneling to the top and into the hands of a few.
"Without capitalism the elite won't feel the need to enrich themselves! They'll work for the common good, obviously!" /s because, well, this is Lemmy. I love it but...
The people who own, run, operate and manage all information systems from education, news services to schools are all or mostly private corporations, businesses or wealthy benefactors who all base their wealth on capitalism. So they spend all their time and energy using the services and organizations they control to convince everyone everywhere that capitalism is the only option and that socialism in any form is not good or does not work or is not practical.
One reason I can think is we haven't yet seen a working socialist society, which often fail for external reasons.
For example, the socialist government in Cuba was severely undermined by the USA imposed blockade.
A more recent example is Venezuela, while you can think what you want about its current government, I don't think USA should interfere with any sovereign nation.
There's almost like a pattern, like someone, somewhere doesn't like the idea of socialism to succeed.
China needs Taiwan to fail because the Chinese Communist Party maintains that democracy is incompatible with the Chinese culture. Having a very successful Chinese democracy shows that Chinese culture is compatible with democracy.
In a similar way, capitalists do everything they can to scuttle socialist countries, because a working socialist country would show that it was viable. Hence endless embargoes, wars, and a steady stream of propaganda. This was true for the entire life of the Soviet Union, and continues to this day for socialist countries.
There are plenty of surviving socialist states, and Cuba and Venezuela and Vietnam for that matter still exist despite extensive US meddling so it's weird to call them non-surviving.
Whether you want to call China socialist is a whole different kettle of worms, but I think it demonstrates rather handily that socialism's second greatest burden beyond the necessity of fighting off capitalists is the authoritarianism of Marxists.
If you don’t define it, lots of things can be wrong with it. Or right.
Which is why almost no one defines it.
I think the general idea of those against it is that they assume it is zero sum. Meaning, for everyone to be taken care of, the person must lose or have less.
Because it is opposed to clasical liberalism. that is the idea that humans can choose their own direction and control their own persuit of life. 'life, liberty and property'.
socalists like to talk about capitalisn because that is an easy strawman to beat up. the fundamentals of liberty are very differnt from their conception of capitalism though and they don't want you to know just how messed up their theory realy is.
don't confuse clasical liberalism from what modern language calls liberal.
Socialism, as far as Marx was concerned, is a transitional stage to Communism. This is why it gets a lot of push back. Because of that connection. Worse, youve got generations of people conflating the two. And worse still, you have a few examples of people who were claiming to be socialist, who were really just using socialism for their own ends.
The reality is that Socialism is about everything being about the betterment of the people. That assets are a shared ownership, rather than privately owned. This in turn creates a fairer distribution of the wealth generated. So everyone's lives improve.
The issue, the real issue, is that socialism needs a very large government in order to work. The fear is that this would create out of control bureaucracy. With middle mangers everywhere doing middle manger things that would create a system that was slow and worse far easier to corrupt. On top of that, you have the issue of competition not being the driving force of innovation. The government would control and mandate investment and innovation. Which again comes back to the middle mangers. There is also an issue with free speech. After all, if the government controls everything, where do you go if that government doesnt see the issues that its created? And worse still, how might it handle those dissenting voices?
The reality is that no one system is "the best" and really what would work best is a mixed system. One that builds a well regulated economy while maintaining a safety net for the people. So you would have private businesses, competition, innovation combined with free healthcare, free education, unemployment support, worker rights, high taxes, and high transparency and accountability.
You need a definition. You didn't define it, and people who hate it rarely define it. If nobody knows what everyone is talking about, then it's all a waste of time.
So, what do you think it means?
The people who don't like socialism mean something else. To them, socialism is when the government takes care of you and your neighbors. This is scary and can go badly: sometimes the government does not know your needs, isn't paying good attention, or is making choices in a bad way. There are examples of governments that said they would take care of everything for everyone, and then many many people didn't get enough food.
People also worry about a little socialism, because when the government takes care of some things automatically, it means local communities don't have to worry about those things. Then the people in the community forget how to do them (imagine tasks like building houses) themselves, and that makes them more dependent on the government. This is also scary, because in an emergency (like after a flood) you might not be the governments first priority. It also means that you can more easily live in a place without being part of a local community (like a church), and that loss of close friends makes everyone more lonely and sad.
It's not clear that the people with these worries are right. Other systems also have problems, and so even if there are good concerns here, maybe socialism is still best.
Remember to look for nice people who disagree with you, and listen to their fears, needs and dreams. It is easy to end up in echo chambers, and feel like everyone who disagrees with you is dumb, evil, or crazy. But usually we only see the loudest (not the smartest or kindest) voices that disagree with us. Algorithms and popularity contests online really like to reward things that make you angry.