It's not really a dilemma. The US has shown itself unreliable. So, Europe has to step up and become self-sufficient. Most European leaders know this, but it will take time. Also, in the meantime, Europe doesn't want to alienate the US too much.
this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2025
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Most European leaders know this, but it will take time. Also, in the meantime, Europe doesn't want to alienate the US too much.
the thing is that 'time' is probably what we have the least of at our disposal. At least, now that the USA told the entire world the EU can go fuck itself (and also now that they told the USA is willing to do what the fuck they consider good for them, anywhere on the planet).
Revitalizing our industries should be our top priority. I mean, here in France we have one remaining large gun factory... So we should not worry about the USA. As far as I'm concerned, if what they are doing to Ukraine is the way they intend to keep their engagements with their 'allies' they can also go fuck themselves.
We also need to get some real leaders, we've more than enough managers... but that's a whole other point.
The things is that the USA made it clear we were on our own already so why keep trying getting any support from them? We won't. It's just us sheepishly not willing to admit that and act accordingly. Which is even more silly knowing we could start immediately and that buy doing so, someone like Trump would probably feel less entitled in doing whatever he wants.
We wish for things to stay like they used to be. not change. Things have changed, and I don't see any turning back even after the angry Orange dude is replaced by another POTUS (if that happens, seeing how things are going over there I'm not that will be as easily as it should).
European countries need to remember what they used to be prior to them relying on the green giant. And they need to do it fast because we don't have much time leftโexactly like with climate change but in an even shorter time frame: if shit must happen in Europe, unlike the climate change most dramatic consequences, they won't happen by 'the end of the century' which is so remote most people can't be bothered with it, they will happen in the coming decade or so, which most of us should still be there to experiment live with their own precious life...
edit: clarifications.
Most European leaders know [โฆ] it will take time.
We [โฆ] need to get some real leaders
This pretty much sums up our problem and the solution when it comes to defending our part of the globe.
Europe doesn't want to alienate the US too much.
A US alienated too much would be a serious problem, because yes, we do need them. At the same time; we're a bigger group of people, with a stronger foundation when it comes to healthcare and education (i'd argue that also makes us a stronger and smarter group of people). Yet we need leaders who understand our position and understand we're not powerless sheep doomed to follow the big bad United States where ever they please. We need leaders or that lead.
But we do have Military Industry? French, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy. Unify that all together and we have a pretty big one as well.
Donโt buy from us. Please. Weโll never learn otherwise.
I just bought Mexican hot sauce instead of American ๐ฅต
Marie Sharpโs, all the way
They're Belizean, I think, but same sentiment and damn good hot sauce.
Correct, but thatโs the one I like. Avoiding American โfoodโ companies is usually a good idea, especially for Americans.
But was it made in New York City?
Valentina is headquartered and made in Mexico.
It was a joke referencing a Pace picante salsa ad from the '90s
To summarize this propaganda piece by the NYT:
"Europe lacks quality alternatives", "It wont fuel innovation in Europe", "They should just keep buying our cutting edge technology", "USA number 1!!!11 whoo whoo whoo"
What a joke.
Military-industrial complex: NO.
Enough to defend Europe: YES.
Here's a crazy idea: how's about we just ensure we can defend ourselves if needed instead of building an industry out of it? Can we just do that, have some limit to it? Do we really want to go down the same roads the U.S. has been treading for years? Do we really like where said roads got them?
Munitions go bad, weapon tech improves. If you are not constantly on the cutting edge then you are outgunned and outmatched.
Do we really want to go down the same roads the U.S. has been treading for years? Do we really like where said roads got them?
It's not like there is only one path to the goal of being able to defend ourselves. Sure we might run into similar issues as the US, but buying tech from other countries instead of building it ourselves would really be an expensive and shortsighted idea. Don't forget our current dealer has been our closest ally since ww2, arguably longer, and they aren't proving themselves very dependable right now.
Not saying we shouldn't make our own, just saying that making an entire industry out of it while the system still functions essentially as it has is a very, very bad idea.
We need a paradigm shift if we're ever to see a different society for ourselves. Repeating the same things over and over again ensures that we'll burn ourselves to the ground. And we shouldn't give into war paranoia, either. Being reasonably prepared is one thing, dumping everything we have into it is entirely different.
Just as the Church should be separated from the State, I believe the Military and everything else related to it should be separated from the economy.
I repeat, we seriously need to think differently from now on. The old ways have brought us this mess.
I'm not sure you're aware, but guns don't grow on trees - you need an industry if you want to produce weapons.
I get your point though, the industry shouldn't be a powerful fearmongering lobby that tells everyone we really need another war.
But I don't think you can easily combine the push for strategic autonomy and European self-sufficiency with revamping our entire economic system. There is a lot of industries where focus on profit has ruined the market, like healthcare, housing and in lesser extent education. You're totally right, it would be better if the European defence industry isn't driven by profits, but it'd be wiser not to delay until we have a system that works.
That's, indeed, my point. And, no, an industry in the sense in which the post and article mean it, in the sense in which it is understood in contemporary economics, is not needed.
What is needed is focused effort. It's very easy to forget that things don't actually cost money, things cost resources and energy. Those don't have an intrinsic monetary value, the price tag is 100% arbitrary and made up. Otherwise, existing in the Universe would require paying taxes in money, and last time I checked, we're the only biological doofuses who do that. And we do it to ourselves, no less.
Things can be done without money, and we need to remember that. Humanity has been doing stuff without money for almost literally aeons before someone thought it would be a good idea to dream that up.
As for getting things rolling, let's not forget that muskets still work just fine with a bit of maintenance, and they're hundreds of years old at this point. Guns last a long, long time, it's just that the military industrial complex can't function if people realise that and don't treat them as perishables. And I doubt we've dismantled all guns pre-2000, for instance. And there are plenty of easy-to-make, DIY-type stuff which have been unfortunately demonstrated to be very effective several times over.
Where there's a will, there's a way. And, yes, it's tough to shift the system, nobody said it'd be all rainbows and roses. But it sure as hell would be a lot easier if everyone started pushing.
I agree with it. I think we should be able to defend, but fuck a military-industrial complex.