I think any perceived American exceptionalism went out the window after we elected the Orange One the first time. The second time has eradicated any lingering shred of this belief worldwide.
this post was submitted on 22 May 2025
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People hoped that Trump and exceptionalism was a blip to survive through and it would be gone after 4 years. The way I see it, the real hit to America's reputation was Biden who continued a lot of the exceptionalist policies that Trump started. Now Trump 2.0 is continuing the exceptionalist policies, but added pure fascism on top of that. Even if Trump is gone and fascism doesn't prevail, I don't expect the exceptionalism to go away.
[deleted]
Oh please. Biden didn't just live with the Trump aftermath, in many cases he chose to keep pushing it. He was a mixed bag, doing a lot of great things that Trump never would have, but he did a lot of bad without anybody twisting his arm.
[deleted]
I don't think anybody expected Biden to be that good and, no, that's not the point of the criticisms at all. The point is that the establishment is guaranteed to wheel out another Biden in 3 years and it's critical that we shut that down.
You are far from the only person operating on that theory of gradual change, but it's dead wrong and exactly what brought us to where we are today. In fact, it's exactly what leads to fascism every single time it ascends. Weak neoliberals fail to take care of people, and the people turn against them.
Look at how much gradual change the fascists are able to tear down in the span of a few months. What are they afraid to tear down? Social Security and Medicare. It's the big changes that rapidly gain the popularity needed to survive right wing onslaught. Everything else dies.
[deleted]
The general principle that building takes more time than destroying is pretty solid - in general. However, applying it to politics is absolutely insane.
You ever hear that war is politics by other means? That's a good principle too, and the reverse is what applies here. Politics is war by other means. Republicans know that. They are fighting a war and Democrats are dutifully putting up villages they can't defend. The clever villagers are defecting before the tanks roll in.
As I already pointed out, what you "think" stands in absolute contrast with everything that's happened in politics in this country and globally for at least the last 100 years. If you and people like you don't wake up, we are all fucked. (Assuming we aren't already).
Reasserting what you think, instead of addressing my arguments, puts you at the same level of rationality as MAGA. The country didn't get the way it is by magic. Democrats hollowed out voters skulls, then Republicans filled them. Remember that when you complain about what the country wants.
[deleted]
Your argument was that fascists can destroy a lot of incremental change in a short while. I’m agreeing with you.
Not exactly. My argument is that incremental changes get swept away easily, while large systemic changes can't, and are actually very difficult to sweep away incrementally too. Republicans have been seething about Social Security and Medicare since they were introduced, and up until now they have stood largely in-assailable. Even over the last 50 years, as all the wealth of middle America has been stripped away and siphoned to the top, Republicans have been afraid to touch them. They won't last much longer, but it will have taken driving the entire federal government into bankruptcy to do it.
I would say there’s plenty of evidence against it from the dawn of civilization...
I guess I should have specified modern politics, which have a lot of differences from ancient and even pre-Internet civilizations. Still, I don't think it changes much with my arguments. Don't be complaining about this getting long though, when you blow up the scope so broadly. I'm going to cherry pick Rome, but I'm pretty sure I can make the case with any of them.
The Roman Colosseum is certainly one of the longest standing achievements in the world. It took 8 years to construct, and was commissioned by Emperor Vespasian 3 years after taking office. There was no dragging of feet on the politics there but, for my argument, the more interesting aspect is "why" it was built. Rome was in a state of upheaval and had gone through three emperors in less than 2 years. Vespasian took office with weak public support, and needed a great symbol to back up his public image campaign. He ruled for 10 years until his death, and was was succeeded by his son.
The same kind of stories exist for the Pantheon and many of the largest roman roads and aqueducts.
Cuba, Poland, Iraq, the EU and Australia have all also had immense growth and development in the last century in tandem with stability.
For some definition of "stability" maybe. All of those have gone through changes that absolutely dwarf things like Medicare for All.
So my point still stands, in the US, at least one party has spent decades tearing down, and from the looks of it one of them never tried to build anything up.
What was your point again? Are you disagreeing with something I said? The American working class has been absolutely crushed over the last 50 years, mostly but not entirely at the hands of Republicans. I never said otherwise, but Democrats are still working from the same failed strategy book that has been entirely ineffective.
Yet, the population continues to vote this way. It’s hard not to see it as voluntary; In that much time, accessing as much free information and thought as the US has, you can’t really claim to be ignorant of differing information, other than willfully.
Interesting theory, but how exactly does blaming the voters provide the Democrats with a working strategy going forward? It's nothing but political masturbation to blame voters. It doesn't matter because these are still the voters that Democrats need. This is designed to make smug Democrats feel good while doing nothing to correct the course of the country.
I have a similar opinion of American voters, but I look for what can be used to get them back on the right track. If you feed political junkies like me and perhaps yourself with a bunch of statistics, we will of course come to the conclusion that voting for the Democrats is the only sane thing to do. The problem is that most voters aren't political junkies, and the only news they get is slop from Fox, CNN, and MSNBC, unless they get sucked into the Republican disinformation machine online. Republicans have invested massively in online "information" resources, while Democrats (speaking of the establishment) have done everything they can to cripple anything left of center online. It's no surprise that the American voting public is so turned around.
Voters want leadership and symbolism. Democrats have provided neither, and Republicans have provided both in spades. I can go deeper into this if you are interested.
If both ruling parties are that obviously corrupt, why is there no action?
I never mentioned corruption at all but, since you went there, I guess I need to lay out my position on corruption. Republicans and Democrats are both corrupt, but it really seems like there ought to be different words to describe each. Republicans embody corruption from top to bottom, and they barely try to hide it. I don't think any politician who still calls themselves a Republican has any goal for their time in office other than to profit from corruption. Democrats (with a few exceptions) do not seek corruption, but every aspect of their institutions has been corrupted by their reliance on, and association with, big money donors. Even their thinking on political strategy has been compromised. I have no doubt at all that President Biden saw himself as the political equivalent of Captain America, yet he led us all to right where we are today. If I told you in 2020, as I told many people, that we might end up better off if Trump won than Biden, you would have thought I was insane or a Republican bot, but it turned out I was right. I honestly didn't think the fascist who took power in 2024 would be Trump v2, but I knew it would be somebody, and that Biden would not be up to the challenge.
Just a personal note: I've been making these arguments for over 20 years now, and others have been doing it much longer. It's been like watching a slow motion car crash watching the inevitable play out and being powerless to stop it. I'm soul weary at this point, and I don't see the path that gets us out of this mess. I have no idea what is going to happen in the coming years, but I don't see how it will be good. I have two kids in their 20s, and I really fear for their future. I don't know why I'm still making the same old arguments because, even if the Democrats reformed overnight, I don't see how it will be fast enough.
Biden kept quite a few of the tariffs Trump did in his first term. Even increased some of them.
95% of what he did was through executive power, which he had full control over.
On many other issues, however, Biden retained the essence of Trump’s approach. Key documents issued during Trump’s first term characterized China and Russia as strategic competitors of the United States, a framing Biden embraced. Biden kept the Trump-era tariffs on China and expanded controls on technology transfers that began under Trump. He executed the Afghanistan withdrawal agreement negotiated between Trump’s team and the Taliban, remained outside the Iran nuclear deal, and, like Trump—but unlike President Barack Obama—provided lethal aid to the government in Ukraine. Biden sought to extend the Abraham Accords, a key Trump-era foreign policy success in the Middle East, and over time, he attempted to make Saudi Arabia a U.S. treaty ally. The two administrations could hardly have been more different in style and rhetoric. In the underlying substance of their policies, however, there was more continuity than the casual observer might have appreciated.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/trump-biden-trump-foreign-policy
[deleted]
I'm not sure in which bubble you are living in, but US is notorious for flip flopping on their policies with each new presidency. Each new president that comes in and reverses most of the things the last president did. That's literally has been the case since the country's founding exactly because of the separation of power.
That is why Biden keeping many of the previous Trumop policies was noteworthy and scary for the rest of the world.
[deleted]
It's a real thing in financial markets. Or it was. America has had a privileged position with borrowing. It's both the cause of the 2008 financial crash, and the country that weathered it best. By 2011, people were looking at the austerity measures in the EU and decided the US was a better place to put their money.
You're not wrong to say it's rich assholes deciding where to put their money, but the fact is that they drive the market.
It's the patriotic suckers out there who don't understand how this privileged position functions and are now dismantling it like monkeys taking apart a typewriter.
Trump was the end of it in 2016
Dubya
We should not remember that cunt fondly just because some time has passed