this post was submitted on 01 Oct 2025
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[–] anton@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I know how how natural numbers work, but the axioms in the comment i replied to are not enough to define them.

Not sure what you mean by 'loops'

There could be a number n such that m=s(n) and n=s(m). This would be precluded by taking the axiom of induction or the trichotomy axiom.

If we only take the latter we can still make a second number line, that runs "parallel" to the "propper number line" like:

n,s(n),s(s(n)),s(s(s(n))),...
0,s(0),s(s(0)),s(s(s(0))),...

there are no natural numbers that are negative

I know, but the given axioms don't preclude it. Under the peano axioms it's explicitly spelled out:
0 is not the successor of any natural number

[–] TeddE@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Ah! I see. Thanks for clarifying.

As to m=s(n) and n=s(m), I think that is the motivation behind modular arithmetic and it gets used a lot with rotation, because 12 does loop back around to 1 in clocks, and a half turn to face backwards is the same position whether clockwise or counter. This is why we don't use natural numbers for angles and use degrees and radians.

I'm terms of parallels, I personally see that as a strength - instead of having successors (a term that intuitively embeds a concept of time/progression), I typically take the successor function as closer to the layman concept of 'another'. Thus five bananas is s(s(s(s(🍌)))) and it does have a parallel to five cars s(s(s(s(🚗)))). The fiveness doesn't answer questions about the nature of the thing being counted (such as, "Are these cars: 🚓🚙🏎️🛵? "). Mathematicians like to use the size of the empty set as an abstract stand-in for when they don't know what they're talking about (in a literal sense, not broadly).

As far as predecessors to 0 - undefined isn't a problem for natural numbers, just for the people using them. And it makes a certain sense, too. You can't actually have negative apples (regardless of how useful it may be to discuss a debt of apples).