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I was giving Enterprise another chance, and even Archer was starting to grow on me in season 2. Then season 3 happened and he became a war criminal. (beige.party)

submitted 1 day ago by LoganFive@beige.party to c/startrek@startrek.website

34 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I was giving Enterprise another chance, and even Archer was starting to grow on me in season 2. Then season 3 happened and he became a war criminal.

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[–] Steve@communick.news 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not sure what the problem is.
Does it make Archer a bad character, or Enterprise a bad show, when he breaks bad for understandable reasons?

[–] Snowcano@startrek.website 7 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

I think the character decisions were motivated, intentionally difficult to wrestle with and especially relevant for the time it was made. I think what makes the show unforgivable for it however, is the complete lack of consequences for those transgressions.

And before someone brings up DS9 and In the Pale Moonlight, I would point out that that entire episode was doing the work of questioning and condemning decisions just like this. It's what ENT was missing.

[–] Steve@communick.news 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

You're still judgeing the quality of the story by your morality.
It's common for terrible acts to go unpunished. There are lots of movies and shows where the bad guy wins. Many where you can't even tell who the bad guy is. But they're still good stories.

[–] Snowcano@startrek.website 7 points 17 hours ago

It’s common for terrible acts to go unpunished. There are lots of movies and shows where the bad guy wins. Many where you can’t even tell who the bad guy is. But they’re still good stories.

That's kind of my point though, the show failed to make any statement about it, including this one. In fact, what you say here would have been an exceptional statement to make, especially considering the post-9/11 backdrop of this season's arc. Instead they were just like, "ANYWAY, time for some timetravel shenanigans" or whatever the next season was doing, I don't recall. That absence of comment is the failure the show makes is what I'm really saying.

[–] lordnikon@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Enterprises season three is like the next generation season 1 it's okay to skip

[–] hallettj@leminal.space 9 points 1 day ago

I just rewatched TNG season 1, and I found it much more fun than I remembered! (Excluding Code of Honor ofc.) Super goofy, super Wesley-heavy. But fun!

[–] SurfinBird@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Faulty memory from way back in the first run here, but… Archer suddenly drove some ratings with the sexy hard captain act. Writers may have taken it a little too far in Season 3.

[–] LoganFive@beige.party 2 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

@SurfinBird omg, but he was so awful!

[–] SurfinBird@lemmy.ca 1 points 23 hours ago

Now you are making me want to rewatch.

[–] Anomnomnomaly@beige.party 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

@LoganFive @startrek@startrek.website @startrek@lemmy.ml @StarTrek@mastodon.social

And yet... still better than Voyager.

and yes... I am prepared to die on that hill.

[–] farah@beige.party -1 points 1 day ago (3 children)

@Anomnomnomaly @LoganFive @startrek@startrek.website @startrek@lemmy.ml @StarTrek@mastodon.social Sir

I mean voyager went downhill after certain crew member joined the ship; but still

[–] Steve@communick.news 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You can see how that seems sexist, right?
Especially when 7 and The Doctor are debatably tied, for most interesting character on the show.

[+] farah@beige.party -7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

@Steve I’m confused. Are we talking about the hologram doctor? Because that guy was awful. For Star Trek doctors, he was hands down, the second worst. (The worst goes to Julian Bashir of course)

[–] Steve@communick.news 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The hologram was the only doctor on the show.
And the only character actually named The Doctor. Note the capitalization use.

And thinking the show went bad because a sexy actor was brought on to up the sexiness, is sexist.
Unless you didn't like her evolution as a character, or thought she was a bad actor. Those would just be bad takes, not actually sexist.

[–] Solumbran@lemmy.world 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

So not liking a character that was just here to be an objectified woman is sexist?

How the fuck do you even reach such a stretch?

The character of seven was not just an objectified, sexual thing, she was also debatably a kid (mentally) being sexualized as, let's not forget it, her individual growth was halted when she got assimilated.

And also, I'm waiting for anyone to try to explain to me why a borg would have heels and a boob-armor, which is obviously absurdly nonsensical and showing that she's just here to make a bunch of creeps get boners.

If I had to describe voyager, I would probably end up saying "an okay show, if you manage to pretend seven doesn't exist"

[–] Steve@communick.news 1 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (1 children)

Seeing a character as nothing more than her body is sexist.

It's sexist to create and cast the character for it.
It's sexist to dislike the character for it.

In both cases you're judging a character/person solely by their appearance.

[–] Solumbran@lemmy.world 2 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

This logic makes no sense.

Seven is a symbol of sexism by the fact that she was just here to be a sex object. I dislike the character (partly, as I mentioned there are a lot of reasons to hate this shitty character) because it is the typical product of sexism where the woman is supposed to wear hills and show her boobs, even if she's a braindead robot.

I am judging the character by the purpose of it. There is no person that I'm judging, I'm attacking the concept and the people who made it.

Also, I struggle how it is sexist considering that it's unrelated to gender. Harry Kim is an equally bad character that was just put here because the actor was elected sexiest man of the year or some other stupid shit like that; the difference being that he was not put as a central character, and didn't completely destroy the coherence of the show.

On a side note, I really don't understand what is the goal of trying to say that pointing out sexism is sexist. You'd rather have people not point out anything and let sexism happen freely? Now that sounds sexist.

[–] benfell@infosec.exchange 1 points 11 hours ago

@Solumbran @Steve

I agree with this in Voyager, a show I was never very impressed by anyway. She emerged as a much stronger character in Picard, however.

[–] Steve@communick.news 0 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (1 children)

Attacking a character for their character is fine.
Attacking produces being driven by sexism is fine.
Attacking a character because they were created by sexist producers, is sexist.
Attack the creation process, sure. But judge the character on the character.

You just attacked Harry Kim as a bad character. That's fine. It would be nice if you were more specific, but it's not important.
Your critique of 7 have been all about her appearance. (Comming up more substantive criticism of 7 now, would only seem a justification after the fact. I wouldn't recommend it.)

Another argument is: In US entertainment, nearly everyone is cast largely because of how attractive they are or aren't. Even the "uguly people" in movies, are usually just kind of average looking. Singeling out the "sexy one" for being cast by their appearance is sexist.

[–] Solumbran@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

I am not attacking the character because of looks, but because of intention.

Seven is wearing heels and a boob armor as an objectification. The reason this is more significant than, I don't know, some random action movie crap objectifying women, is that star trek (and I would say, especially voyager) was not overall sexual, but they went out of their way to make a character that is overly sexual compared to both the tone of the show and the concept of the borg.

My criticisms were not about her looks, but about the goal of her looks and the implications of them. As I said, it is not only gross to try to make a character just to make people get hard while watching the show, it is also incoherent with the universe of the show (as before, borg and heels don't make sense) and extremely immoral (again, the character is shown as having the mind of a kid, not understanding sexual matters as you would expect from a kid, and yet the show is fine showing her as a sexual object).

The people responsible for the character are pieces of shit, the character is an abomination, and the looks are part of the package and a big symptom of why the character is bad. On their own, her looks wouldn't be the problem, if it didn't raise a lot of problems. As an example, if star trek was showing all characters wear overly sexual outfits like seven's, then this would be a different matter; but this is not the case. TNG was a bit like that sometimes, with Picard and Riker's pajamas that open down to the knees and weird stretching yoga sessions, and as such it's hard to specifically pinpoint a character, as it's just a general ambiance. Voyager doesn't have that.

Also, you keep on talking about sexism, but complaining about objectification is not even related to gender so I struggle seeing how that even fits. Objectification is always bad, no matter the gender, it doesn't make sense. The difference with seven is that her objectification wasn't a "once in a while" thing, it was permanent, as it was the whole purpose of the character, and it's not like the writing surrounding her saves anything.

[–] Steve@communick.news 1 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (1 children)

I am not attacking the character because of looks, but because of intention.

Exactly. Your conflating the character, with its creation. Your calling her bad not for who the character is or who she became, but solely for the process that created her based on looks. You're implying or assuming, a good character couldn't come from a bad process.

[–] Solumbran@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah so you're ignoring most of what I'm saying on purpose.

I explained multiple times why the looks of seven, on top of being pure objectification which has negative consequences outside of the universe of the show, also have a pretty bad impact within the show, making it a bad character both from a meta and in-lore perspective.

I even said that if everyone was dressed like her it wouldn't have the same impact (even though it would be far from fixing the character).

If you're not going to debate in good faith there is no point, have a good day.

[–] Steve@communick.news 0 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Literally everything you've mentioned was about her looks, and how they were the basis for her being put on the show. You've mentioned nothing about the characters actions, choices, relationships with other crewmembers, or Jeri Ryan's performance.

[–] Solumbran@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Her outfit matters as it makes the character incoherent. No one in the show wondered why a battle robot would wear heels. She didn't say why either. As such, her character already doesn't make sense. It is heels and a boob armor, it could have been a broom up her ass, either way it doesn't make sense and it's not about "her looks" but about the implications of the character deciding to wear something like this. Borgs are supposed to be ultra-rational, this makes her character stupidly incoherent.

And how is the fact that a kid is shown as being sexualized and romanced by adults characters about her looks? My point was that she's a kid mentally, and yet portrayed sexually, how is that about looks? Of course, the underlying meta explanation is that she was just a sex object put in the show for her looks, but my point was precisely that characters in the show, since they don't know that, are apparently fine with dating a kid. This is a horrible character, no matter her looks.

Overall, most of my points were not about her looks, but they do relate to it since the character was made badly just so that it could be objectified. To try to make you understand, her looks are not the problem, but the main reason that pushed the writers to make a bad, incoherent, shitty character. And of course I didn't even start digging into the things you mentioned because they are too many and less bad than what I mentioned, but yes, her actions and choices are incoherent, her relationships weird and bad and basically child abuse, and her performance was pretty abysmal. I just focused on the initial, core problem of the character, which is that it was written lazily because they didn't care about it making sense, about picking a proper actress, or about thinking about the moral implications of their choices, as all that they wanted was an object-woman.