This is excellent article on enshitification, some of the factors that can lead to it, and ways founders could think about it to hopefully avoid it. What it doesn't seem to talk about is how Tailscale intends to avoid it, now and in the future.
Selfhosted
A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don't control.
Rules:
-
Be civil: we're here to support and learn from one another. Insults won't be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.
-
No spam posting.
-
Posts have to be centered around self-hosting. There are other communities for discussing hardware or home computing. If it's not obvious why your post topic revolves around selfhosting, please include details to make it clear.
-
Don't duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.
-
Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).
-
No trolling.
Resources:
- selfh.st Newsletter and index of selfhosted software and apps
- awesome-selfhosted software
- awesome-sysadmin resources
- Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting
Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.
Questions? DM the mods!
Better yet, why put yourself at the mercy of something that can enshittify in the first place? I've never understood why people get into selfhosting and then go right back to giving power over their network to a 3rd party again.
I don‘t think it is a binary situation: Complete self sustainability vs. full dependence on large corporations. Rather it is a spectrum and everyone feels comfortable somewhere else on it. Also I don‘t think the ends really exist, as someone else will always have power over you (you can‘t reasonably maintain everything yourself) and you can always migrate/quit from a service. Over time your position might change. For me personally I think Tailscale is a great service and for someone just starting out I would definitely recommend it. I think a lot frustration can be avoided when you don‘t set your self-hosting goals to high at the beginning. You can always update your setup later on.
Because it's a stepping stone in the learning. Using something like tailscale that just works allows you to develop skills with other software and workflows. Eventually you progress to harder things like hosting your own private VPN.
Convenience. Setting up Tailscale is easier than setting up WireGuard by yourself and dynamic dns. Not by much but enough that those who don't know how to do latter might opt for Tailscale
I think all they can really say is it's not on the near horizon, but every public company will enshittify at some point. I can't see a future where the investors will be OK for anything but going public or an acquisition by a public company. It's just a question of when, and when they start to turn the screw.
I always look for the companies that are advertising heavily. If we could see their books, I'd say the ones that spend more on marketing than engineering, product, and ops are likely the ones who will enshittify, eventually. They are building the product or service to sell later so they are trying to drum up users and corner the market.
Unfortunately, this is just about everything in the US now.
It amazes me that so many people obsessed about self hosting everything use this service - really asking for it.
Do you audit all the open source code you self host or trust someone is doing it for you?
Tailscale offers a valuable service and is respected and dependable. After this I'm not sure but let's see. The point is you have to put your trust somewhere and play with the convenience / privacy ratio
Open source - probably some issues I’m too lazy to find but me and anyone else can search for and fix them whenever we want.
Closed source - there is no war in bah sing sei.
No need to preach to me about it. My point was you put your trust in something and until now Tailscale has been trustworthy.
I don’t understand the point of tailscale if straight WireGuard is so simple.
But then you don't understand what Tailscale is. It's not a VPN
I always run headscale on my own server for my own network.
"An expansive vision that's not about money" 🤣 thanks for the laughs.
It said it was going to explain why enshittification wouldn't happen to them, but didn't.
I hope this turns out to be true but we have heard this a thousand times. ‘Don’t be evil, oh wait but profit…’
remember kids, the "C" in series-C stands for Crap.
Huh TIL. Thought it was cock.
Big words. I hope, though don't trust, they can live up to them. But if tailscale goes, I'm just plain fucked. Thats certainly an indicator they're worth some money to me, but there's many a FOSS project before I get to paying a VC one.
As an aside, an interesting service would be a fund allocation type thing. You donate £x, tick which services you use and the funds get divvied up by what you use. Only able to donate £10 but use a lot of services? Each service gets very little, too little to donate as an individual, so little the individual doesn't. But, on aggregate (with hundreds, or dozens of users) it would add up to a worthwhile donation. I thought of "round robin"ing my donations: pihole gets 10 this month, jellyfin the next, audiobookshelf the month after that... but yikes the admin.
Funds are donated when £x is accrued at the end of the month, and the service is maintained by earning interest on the funds held through the month. Idealistic, ripe for abuse, and out of my league to write and administrate. I promise I'd publish all the finances to keep me honest though.
Just a notice, there's also Netbird, so you won't be that fucked...
Thank you, saved. I'd still be a little but fucked, but not entirely.
I guess I should get on with learning/donating to this soon while the sun's still shining with Tailscale. Slower, more gentle transition, fuck up in some dev environment instead of my actual server. Goddamn was tailscale so easy though.
I've always figured that if it was free on the internet, at some point I'd have to find something else to do the same as the former free software/item. That's just the way it goes. Hardly anything stays the same.
I always operate under the assumption that if the product is free, then the user('s data) is the product
In a lot of cases yes, but things like Truenas Bitwarden are paid by enterprise users and the community versions help them with spreading word about the software and helping signal bugs etc.
Yes they can also turn to shit, but generally the consumer markt is so slim that they don;t care
Sure, but there are a lot of things you can do with the use of a good firewall, Pi-Hole, VPN, et al, you can mitigate those leaks. Anytime I fire up a new piece of software, my firewall pops up and says 'Hey bro, you really want this chatty piece of software running uninhibited on your network?' and here I go plugging holes. It's not 100%. Some software absolutely refuses to work unless it has internet access. Bluebeam comes to mind. You do what you can, and decide if the hardwired software is something you really need or not.
Not entirely the case. There are several companies that market primarily to business users that offer freebies to hobbyists -because those hobbyists sometimes eventually get to buy services for their employer.
time for me to find an alternative
Headscale already exists and the Tailscale clients are open source.
Fork their project :) CLI clients are easy enough to use on PC Mac and Linux, All we need is for someone to build Android and iOS clients.
There are loads of alternatives now so it's a good time to have a look.
I've setup netmaker at home, and netbird at work They are both good solutions.
I think if I had to redo home I would swap to netbird. Both of these are fully self hosted.
Neither are as easy to setup as tailscale, but once you get over that hurdle it's fine.
They have enough open source code out there to make the CLI clients and server.
It could be forked right now and turned into a separate project. BSD3 license. Rerelease with modifications. A couple of multi-platform devs could manage it.
Mate, this isn't a new church roof.
Your fundraisers are going to want that money back and then some. Forever.
Well here it comes
This is why I really wish the "control servers" were selfhostable on the open web. Kind of similar to how you can self host a relay node for Rustdesk.
You can connect a headscale derp server to a tailscale environment.
"I can't think of any examples of companies that, in real life, enshittified because they were successful."
Microsoft.
EA, Blizzard, Ubisoft, The New York Times, Fox "News", Walmart, Amazon, Google...
The list is very, very big. They must just be blind as all fuck.
This ~~shit~~ text was generated by llm, wasn't it?
the first paragraph is not like in the post. did they rephrase it because of the "as it does" part?
this is the current version:
Tailscale recently announced our Series C fundraise. We were grateful for all the community support, but the Internet also raised a few of its collective eyebrows, wondering whether this meant the dreaded “enshittification” was coming next.
the internet archive does not show your version either: https://web.archive.org/web/20250702140430/https://tailscale.com/blog/evitability-of-enshittification
where did you get that quote from?
Isn't this a closed-source source service based out of the US? The US government could demand a backdoor in it at anytime in a secret court and no one would know.
Why is enshitification the thing being debated?
Tailscale is Canadian.
I thought they were based in Toronto
Believe their servers are closed source, but the rest such as their clients are open source.
I think the article is pretty accurate about what to expect. The author's view is grounded in reality. They are a business, but that doesn't mean "the capitalists are in control". I would like to think commenters have researched Accel's prior fundings, but I know that is not likely. In short, they do not attempt to control companies. In 300 fundings, they have never attempted to take a majority stake in any company and do not hold majority stake in any company. They don't do acquisitions.
Accel is probably one of the few equity groups that isn't pure fucking evil. If anyone wants to pick a fight over that, fine, but at least research that company first.