this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2025
98 points (98.0% liked)

Europe

6688 readers
991 users here now

News and information from Europe πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί

(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)

Rules (2024-08-30)

  1. This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
  2. No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
  3. Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
  4. No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, islamophobia, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism. We follow German law; don't question the statehood of Israel.
  5. Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
  6. If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
  7. Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in other communities.
  8. Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
  9. No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)
  10. Always provide context with posts: Don't post uncontextualized images or videos, and don't start discussions without giving some context first.

(This list may get expanded as necessary.)

Posts that link to the following sources will be removed

Unless they're the only sources, please also avoid The Sun, Daily Mail, any "thinktank" type organization, and non-Lemmy social media. Don't link to Twitter directly, instead use xcancel.com. For Reddit, use old:reddit:com

(Lists may get expanded as necessary.)

Ban lengths, etc.

We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.

If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 7 or 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.

If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to the primary mod account @EuroMod@feddit.org

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
federalreverse@feddit.org
poVoq@slrpnk.net
anzo@programming.dev
EuroMod@feddit.org
98
Bosch manager in interview: eBike over-motorization is a risk to our business, because eBikes with more than 800 Watt power will lead to much stricter regulations (www.heise.de)
submitted 3 days ago by HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org to c/europe@feddit.org
88 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

cross-posted from: https://feddit.org/post/15750762

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org 37 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (18 children)

And to put the power value of 800 Watt in relation: An average human is unlikely to go with more than 150 Watt over a sustained period. If you put this into this web computer:

http://kreuzotter.de/deutsch/speed.htm

http://kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

you get a speed of 27 km/h for a road bike. If you put 800 Watt in for such a bike, you get a speed of 49 km/h (which in Germany is the general inside-village speed limit which is anachronistically high, and is slowly being replaced by 30 km/h where you have bicycles, pedestrisns, or schools).

That also means that an e-bike with 800 Watt power is actually a light motorcycle, with all the associated risks.

load more comments (18 replies)
[–] HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org 19 points 3 days ago (1 children)

From the interview:

The whole industry is worried, but it's not about one company. With motors like these, we are moving further and further away from bicycles, and as an industry, we risk e-bikes being regulated by the EU. So far, e-bikes have been treated the same as bicycles in the EU. And we as the ZIV want to protect this status. To achieve this, we need to clarify the gray areas in regulation that define what is and what is not a bicycle. And two values are important here: performance and the ratio between rider power and motor power.

In this respect, DJI achieves values with the Avinox motor with 1000 watts and 800 percent muscle gain that did not exist before.

As I said, it's not just about one specific brand. It's about everyone pushing the performance values upwards. And the EU could look at this and ask: What are you actually doing here with your Newton meter power assistance factor race? Unlike the e-bike, the S-pedelec with a cut-off speed of 45 km/h is considered a moped in the L1 class and is subject to type approval. The type approval defines the assistance factor 4 for the S-pedelec.

And now the e-bike manufacturers are launching e-bikes that do not require type approval with a factor of 8 on the market.

Note that there is some confusing terminology: "eBike" as a common (but wrong) term means a bicycle with assistance electric power which is limited to 25 km/h in speed. The proper term for this is "Pedelec". In difference to this, "S-Pedelec" means a light motorcycle which in Germany can go with up to 45 km/h, needs insurance, license plate, strict technical certification, helmet - and cannot, of course, use bicycle paths and cycle lanes.

[–] Successful_Try543@feddit.org 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

~~> and cannot, of course, use bicycle paths and cycle lanes.~~

~~In town, but outside it's allowed unless is explicitly forbidden.~~

[–] HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

In Germany, that's not the case. What's frequently allowed outside villages (but need explicit permission!) are mofas which are gas-powered vehicles which have a max speed of 25 km/h. The Netherlands are more permissive here but they do have far, far better cycleways.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

is "mofa" short for "Motor-Fahrrad"? i've seen the term a few times in the past few days but never before that. in that case they are what i would know as a "klass II moped", but here that category also includes pedelecs.

love the pseudo-homologated rules for eu motor vehicles.

[–] Successful_Try543@feddit.org 6 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Yes. But unlike in Sweden, where "klass II mopeds" don't need an insurance nor a drivig permit , in Germany they do in general ('mofa test certificate', "Mofa-PrΓΌfbescheinigung", i.e. you need to take 6Γ—90 minutes theory lessons and a 90 minute driving lesson and pass a theoretical test, not a practical test like for a usual driving licence/permit). Only normal pedelecs (those with 25 km/h limit, not s-pedelecs) are exempt and are treated as usual bikes and thus, don't need any insurance nor driving permit.

Like in Sweden, S-pedelecs in Germany are treated equal to Mopeds (klass I moped) and thus, require the AM drivers licence and an insurance.

[–] HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org 2 points 2 days ago

is "mofa" short for "Motor-Fahrrad"?

yep.

[–] Successful_Try543@feddit.org 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (4 children)

Sorry, I've misunderstood.

Yet, there may be bike lanes, especially fast tracks, where S-pedelecs are explicitly allowed.

collapsed inline mediaS-Pedelecs frei

https://wattmoves.de/s-pedelecs-endlich-auf-radwegen-hier-ist-es-erlaubt/213234/

AfaIk, Mofas don't need explicit permission on bike lanes out of town (Β§ 2 Abs. 4 StVO), but are explicitly prohibited sometimes *"keine Mofas".

collapsed inline mediakeine Mofas

In town, the use of bike lanes with Mofas or pedelecs "E-Bikes" may be permitted if explicitly stated with an extra sign.

collapsed inline mediaMofas und E-Bikes frei

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] trollercoaster@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 days ago

I don't understand how anyone in their clear mind could think that treating electric mopeds like bicycles was a good idea in the first place.

[–] glitchdx@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

as an american, this doesn't directly affect me, but I am concerned that by the time I can afford to buy a good high power ebike, they might not exist anymore. I'd like it to not take all day just to cross town.

I agree with the idea that a better solution is to just apply a speed limit to bike lanes.

[–] nomecks@lemmy.wtf 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It'll exist, but you'll need a motorcycle license to drive it, and it'll be only on the street.

[–] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

And that will be a good thing.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 6 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Related podcast: Why I'm Ebike-pilled (with American Fietser) - YouTube (The Urbanist Agenda Podcast). They get a bit into the problem of producers trying to sell more "pseudo-motorcycle" vehicles and how the arms race and regulation race work out.

[–] sexy_peach@feddit.org 4 points 3 days ago

I have listened to this episode as well, it's good

[–] jenesaisquoi@feddit.org 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Is there a text version available? I don't have all day.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 4 points 2 days ago

Here's a non-YouTube version: https://podscan.fm/podcasts/the-urbanist-agenda/episodes/why-im-ebike-pilled-with-american-fietser it may have a nicer transcript (probably automatic), but I think you need an account to read it all.

There's the official YouTube auto-generated transcript, but I'm not pasting that here.

[–] HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org 4 points 3 days ago (5 children)

What's fascinating for me is that Copenhagen is arguably the most bike-friendly city in Europe, and probably in the world - and very few people use e-bikes there! Why is this? Can somebody who lives there explain why?

[–] LasseKB@sopuli.xyz 19 points 3 days ago

Copenhagener here. People do use eBikes in Copenhagen, but I guess it depends on what you consider "very few". My guesstimate would be that around one in five bikes is electric. As to why not more bikes are electric, Copenhagen - and Denmark in general - is very flat, so eBikes are more so used for:

  • long distances (say, people who live ~20 km from work but still want to bike there)
  • cargo/passenger bikes
  • letting people bike who otherwise wouldn't physically be able to
[–] JasSmith@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 days ago

I live in Copenhagen. We have plenty. They're relatively expensive though, so obviously most bikes are not (yet) ebikes. We are also experiencing a bike theft epidemic, which discourages people from buying expensive bikes. Another factor is the country is flat as a pancake and the weather is rarely hot. It's much easier to get to work without working up a sweat on a regular bike. In fact, people often relish the ability to get some exercise in the morning and evening. Lastly, Copenhagen isn't very big. We don't have the same crazy distances seen in American cities.

[–] VeganCheesecake@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You can get a well-working used bike for very cheap. New e-bikes tend to be pricey, used e bikes are often still pricey or come with caveats.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments
view more: next β€Ί