this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2025
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[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 98 points 2 days ago (7 children)

Most German citizens didn't know about the mass killings till after the war, even most soldiers.

People being disappeared with no records being kept...

We can't hide behind ignorance later if/when we find out people were executed. That's the whole point of accountability, without the accountability we have to assume worst case scenario. Or else the worst case scenario will happen under the guise of incompetence and the false belief no one would do this.

[–] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 91 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Hey just so you know, it's total bullshit that the german populace didnt know about the holocaust. Some of the civillians may not have known about the specific mechanics, but many were even aware of the gas chambers masquerading as showers, jews included.

People tried to hide behind ignorance after the fact, as I have no doubt they will try to do once this latest atrocity is done. I very much agree that simply being aware does not put us into any position different than the german population in WWII, we must strive to do better than their example.

[–] lectricleopard@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I think how many German people knew how much of the truth back then isnt too important. Some people knew some things.

Im more concerned about the strive to do better you mentioned. What does that look like? Do we all need to start neighborhood militias?

[–] Septimaeus@infosec.pub 8 points 2 days ago

I think no one can answer this definitively, but I’m willing to say no to militias, for various reasons (longer conversation).

What we have here is to some extent a privilege of urban density, but it’s more of a “watch” than a militia. In short, civil disobedience. People volunteer as eyes/ears and meat shields for their neighbors. I haven’t yet been detained but have accepted the possibility.

The reason it works better is another long conversation but, in short, it ensures every attack of the enemy costs them something, and sometimes quite a lot. The resulting war of attrition is winnable because each act of unwarranted aggression erodes legitimacy, boosts recruitment, and increases public resolve.

[–] Triasha@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

How much you are willing to risk is a personal choice.

Get to know your neighbors, get back in touch with friends and family that you know are sympathetic. Give your time and effort to groups in your area that are resisting, whether legally, physically, or however that looks to you.

Starting the French underground is a big lift, but the French underground did not spring fully formed out of nothing. You have to find ways you can help.

[–] Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world 22 points 2 days ago (1 children)

So they said. There's a lot of counter-evidence to it:

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/education/e-learning/podcast/keeping-the-functioning-of-auschwitz-in-secrecy/

They kept meticulous records by using cutting-edge technology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

Amen to accountability. Using intent instead is pretty much a blank check for the privileged to oppress the average person with impunity.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

They kept meticulous records by using cutting-edge technology:

They did...

But they kept it at the camps, or in secret memos only for high ranking party members.

Again, just because trump claims incompetence in the present when we ask where people are, doesn't mean we have all the information.

trump says the Epstein list doesn't exist too, and we haven't seen it either...

But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Like, you're assuming common people knew then what common people knew after. That's a dangerous assumption when we're living thru it

Think of how much shit comes out normally 5-10 years later. We still haven't been hit by the really bad shit trump did his first term.

As bad as 2016-now looks, it's an almost guaranteed that by 2045 we're going to find out it was much worse.

Edit:

To clarify this was the (valid) justification for going after some teenage secretaries at the camps and random offices when they didn't go after every single soldier.

Because someone had to type that shit up, a few low level people were the exception and weren't ignorant.

That being said, if you're a 16 year old girl some old Nazi made his secretary, you were probably going thru your own personal hell and couldn't exactly snitch even if you wanted to.

But...

In the context of how widespread the knowledge of the camps was, it's a relevant tidbit that backs up how few Germans really knew what was happening.

[–] Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

People knew about the concentration camps, though, and must have seen there were many more people going in than they could hold. Dachau was maybe 10 miles from Munich, that's walking distance. No way people didn't know, whatever they claimed later.

[–] mika_mika@lemmy.world -4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

A 10 miles walking distance???? Just send me to the camps.

Lol, you can walk ten miles in about 3 hours at a regular pace. Most reasonably fit people can, anyway. Not everyone has access to cars, and even less so in the '40s. 10 miles would be considered close on foot, much less by bicycle.

[–] GaryGhost@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago

They knew, ignorance in exchange for reason. Like those people who say that ice detention centers give you hot meals and free place to live

[–] ohulancutash@feddit.uk 6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Yeah, it’s bullshit. The exterminations were generally known amongst the German public, particularly in the East. Mass executions were even broadcast live on the radio as early as 1941. The deportations left paper trails perfectly accessible to any interested member of the public, and forced labour from the camps became a common sight in public, and with it came the public beatings and summary executions at the hands of their SS overseers.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I'm not going to do a better job than Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_of_the_Holocaust_in_Nazi_Germany_and_German-occupied_Europe#Nazi_Germany

But the jist is while many were aware the Nazis wanted to do it, they weren't aware it was really happening.

And every sign they had then, America has now...

Not sure where you're getting your info, but Wikipedia is properly sourced and disagrees with you

[–] Modern_medicine_isnt@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Wait, what are you claiming Wikipedia is saying?

"many historians argue that Germans were provided information explicit enough to indicate that the Jewish people were being massacred"

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What's one complete article compared to a partial sentence stripped of all context?

The precise number of people who knew of the Final Solution is unknown. The larger population were at least acutely aware of the Nazi Party's antisemitism, if not advocates of the movement themselves. Numerous perspectives emerge when examining the degrees to which the larger population were aware that antisemitic practices enabled by the Nazi Party would eventuate to ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population. However, many historians argue that Germans were provided information explicit enough to indicate that the Jewish people were being massacred.

Although the mass murder of Jews took place outside of Germany, the mass killing of Soviet prisoners of war occurred within it and at an early date. By mid 1942 an estimated 227,000 had died after being deported to Germany. Many Germans were aware of these killings. Some Germans tried to help the prisoners, by giving them food or even aiding escapees. According to the Security Service reports, many Germans called for the death of these prisoners out of fear that feeding them would reduce their own rations.[9]

Like if there's one word that being removed from a sentence is a giant red flag...

"However" has to be up there.

Like, it's hard to see that deliberate and unnecessary ommision as anything other than an intentional and explicit choice to bias people who didn't click the link...

Read what you posted. The context is saying that they don't know for sure what % of the population knew, and they lay out some arguments supporting both sides. You used the link as if it proved the population didn't know. But that clearly isn't what it says.

My point wasn't that the link proved the opposite of your opinion, it was that the link doesn't prove your opinion. That is a different bar.

The word "however" basically means "in contrast to the previous sentence". It exclusion doesn't change the meaning of the quote. It simply shortens it by allowing the exclusion of the previous sentence. I am not disputing that some experts believe the population didn't know. I am disputing that the link proves that the consensus of experts believe the population didn't know. That is how you presented the link, with obvious intent to mislead anyone who didn't read it into thinking it supported as fact that the population didn't know.

[–] Cypher@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Mass executions were even broadcast live on the radio as early as 1941.

This is somewhat misleading and I assume you're being informed by the wikipedia article?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_of_the_Holocaust_in_Nazi_Germany_and_German-occupied_Europe

Berlin Radio broadcast the mass-execution of Jews in Białystok and the burning of synagogues in July 1941.

The reference cited is a scan of the JTA daily news bulletin 1941-07-18 in which it is stated

In reporting on the execution of Jews in Bilaystock by German soldiers, the Berlin radio stated that a search for arms was conducted by the invading troops in the burning synagogues "where large armament stores were found".

This isn't a direct source for the radio broadcast but we can surmise that a person living in Germany at the time, who heard that a search for weapons was conducted and persons executed as a result during war time, may have been misled by the context into believeing that either these executions were not widespread or unlawful.

Not to mention that not everyone would have heard the broadcast to begin with. Media is much more accessible today than it was in 1941.

You need to consider how a reasonable person may interpret such news and the way the news was delivered, propaganda was not (and still isn't) well understood by the public.

The deportations left paper trails perfectly accessible to any interested member of the public

While there were paper trails these weren't exactly being handed out to the public, and anyone asking too many questions would have faced suspicion as a spy, traitor, communist or Jewish sympathiser.

and forced labour from the camps became a common sight in public, and with it came the public beatings and summary executions at the hands of their SS overseers.

Executions were typically done out of sight of the general populace, especially at the start.

By painting everyone in Germany as complicit you're ignoring the reality, that information can be controlled by a Government, that it can skew public perception with propaganda, and that people were often living in fear of their lives by the time they did find out.

[–] edible_funk@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (2 children)

What was happening then was every bit as out in the open as what's going on today is. It was documented, it was reported, there was audio and video and still a third of the population refused to believe it while another third was cheering it on.

[–] Triasha@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago

People knew they weren't coming back from those trains.

They didn't know exactly how they were going to die, but they knew they wern't going to live on a farm somewhere. They just didn't ask questions because that could get you on the next train.

People hid and smuggled and lied for their friends and in-laws. You don't take that risk from ignorance.

[–] edible_funk@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Nah man, people absolutely knew what was going on. The other comment pointed out it's bullshit Germans were unaware of what was happening. They just didn't do anything about it. Remind you of anything? And they kept meticulous records. Basically this entire comment is total bullshit.